C-Forum

Hello! My old Dagger Rival is now dead. I’m looking for a new canoe that can fit two 60 liters barrels, the sportiest, the better. I was thinking about the Zephyr. Do you have any opinion on this canoe? Does it can fit two 60 liters barrels? Will it be fine when loaded? Do you have any other solo canoe to suggest for class 3 whitewater tripping? Thanks in advance!

The Rival is a good ww tripping canoe, as you know. Guess it is difficult to find a used one in good shape.

Posting some idea of your weight may be helpful.

Thanks.

I'm 5'10" and 190lbs.

The Rival was perfect for me. It is 12'2" while the Zephyr is 11'3". Hopefully the Zephyr can do the job. I wanted to try one last summer but couldn't. What I like about it is its weight...

If you liked the Rival, you might look into the Outrage series, they can take quite a bit of weight.

Yves wrote:Thanks.

I'm 5'10" and 190lbs.

The Rival was perfect for me. It is 12'2" while the Zephyr is 11'3". Hopefully the Zephyr can do the job. I wanted to try one last summer but couldn't. What I like about it is its weight...

I'm not sure the Zephyr is the best boat. I don't know if it will hold two 60L barrels, but the issue is field repairs. If this canoe cracks or worse in the field, it isn't repairable in the same way a royalex boat is. Very few adhesives stick to the Zephyr, making field repairs difficult if not impossible. Lookup in this forum comments about this.

I actually always use one 60L and one 30L for 2 or 3 days trips. The only time I could use two 60L would be for week long trips. That’s why I want the boat to be capable of loading two 60L.

As for the repair issue, I think that it looks worse than it is actually (i.e. the boat is more fragile than a Royalex boat, but it is not that bad). However, I will follow your suggestion and read other posts on that.

Outrage could do the job; however, it is difficult to find one in good condition... Outrage X could be easier to find, however, I find it to be too long for my preference.

Thanks.

As a final note, the Rival is still being made by Millbrook. I imagine they cost a bit, but a composite Rival would be a pretty awesome boat. You probably already knew this, but I thought I'd toss it out there.

Rob

Millbrook boats often cost less than similar Royalex boats. I own two, a c-1 and an OC-1. For tripping, you should be an accurate paddler, not a heedless one, because the Millbrook composite layup can be damaged somewhat more easily than Royalex.

On field repairs, realistically we usually get them done with duct tape. So the Esquif Zephyr can be fixed that way, as can the Millbrooks. But if damage should be serious, tape may not be enough. Millbrooks can be fixed with glass cloth and epoxy, perhaps a bit more easily than Royalex.

I think that a wilderness tripper, in a boat loaded with gear, needs to be more conservative about banging over ledges or floating sideways into rocks. The gear load simply amplifies the force of rock hits.

You obviously like those blue barrels. I have a 30L, and the shoulder/waist harness for it. But barrels won't fit well around the triple saddles in my MR Synergy or my Millbrook Edsel. I am lucky to have 3 Voyageur tapered, slide closure float bags, and one Watershed Futa tapered float bag. They get tied in on the bottom of the boat, alongside the triple saddle. I use a couple of cheap roll top bags for less critical stuff. What with the triple saddle, even a 15' boat gets pretty full.

If you've gotten along with a Rival, maybe an Outrage X would make a good wilderness tripper. I've paddled one, and it was snappy and well-behaved.

h2sk1 wrote:

Yves wrote:Thanks.

I'm 5'10" and 190lbs.

The Rival was perfect for me. It is 12'2" while the Zephyr is 11'3". Hopefully the Zephyr can do the job. I wanted to try one last summer but couldn't. What I like about it is its weight...

I'm not sure the Zephyr is the best boat. I don't know if it will hold two 60L barrels, but the issue is field repairs. If this canoe cracks or worse in the field, it isn't repairable in the same way a royalex boat is. Very few adhesives stick to the Zephyr, making field repairs difficult if not impossible. Lookup in this forum comments about this.

You can easy repair Twintex with Polyester Putty For Car Repair

beereddy wrote:

h2sk1 wrote:

Yves wrote:... Very few adhesives stick to the Zephyr, making field repairs difficult if not impossible. Lookup in this forum comments about this.

You can easy repair Twintex with Polyester Putty For Car Repair

That's a great tip. I hadn't heard that before.

I don't know if you'll hear it again, though. If G-flex won't stick to Twintex, why would a polyester? G-flex sticks much better than vinylester or polyester.

Since he's citing a putty, I suspect he may use it like a mastic to hold a patch over a break. Some polyurethanes may work for that, too, and make a tolerable field repair.

But when you get home and want a proper laminate repair, you might want to call an Esquif factory rep.

As a Zephyr owner and former Rival driver, I guess I'm entitled to an opinion on this one.

I would not select the Zephyr as a tripping boat. I have cracked my boat and have been on a trip where a Mistral was wrapped and badly torn down the sides at the centre thwart. In both cases, field repairs were possible with lots of heated duct tape, but permanent repairs are a factory job and you will lose the use of the boat for a long time. As nothing adheres to Twintex (except duct tape) you need to rethink your repair kit.

I also don't think the Zephyr has the capacity of the Rival. I would put a barrel in the stern, but I would be concerned about how the boat would handle with more gear in the bow. Myself, I would go with a Millbrook glass Rival before choosing the Zephyr, even though I like the boat as a general purpose river runner.

Thank you all for your good advices. I was not aware of the Millbrook Boats. Do you have any data on this composite material? Is it reliable? Better than Twin-Tex? Can I use the same glue as for Royalex (Stabond)?

Call Kaz (Millbrook boats - one of our sponsors here - you'll see his ad at the top of the screen if you refresh it a few times (if it isn't there right now!)) and talk to him about the different layups he can do for what you want. For your use I would expect a heavier than normal layup for fiberglass and kevlar, but it STILL may be lighter than your old Rival. Field repairs with glass and epoxy are not difficult to do, but can take time to setup. BUT, if you are better missing rocks than hitting them I expect you'll be fine. Today's composites are much more durable than those of 20 years ago.

So, here's a scenario to think about. You and your paddling buddies put in for a permit to run a river. Let's say the Middle Fork of the Salmon. You get it, but when the launch date rolls around the level is 1.6 feet at Middle Fork Lodge. This level is below what commercial rafts will run with customers. It's going to be bony. So bony that on some of the rapids the first two days it won't be a matter of trying to miss rocks, it will be choose which line has the softest rocks to hit because you are going to hit some. Do you cancel because you have a glass boat and you're afraid you'll hurt it and have to delay everyone with field repairs? Or instead, do you have a Royalex boat and happily go along, knowing the first two days you'll hit some rocks and scrape here and there, but after that, the water will get deeper and you'll have an absolutely wonderful time.

I'm just throwing this out there as something to think about. I did a trip like this last summer. It was great and I was in a 1992 Dagger Genesis that took all the bumps and scrapes just fine. Not that I didn't try to avoid them--I did everything I could to run clean lines. But it just wasn't always possible. We were self support so the boats were loaded, but even if they hadn't been, even if I had been in my little Prelude, I don't think I could have avoided some rocks in some of the rapids. Would I have wanted to be out there in a glass boat? Would I have wanted to be worrying and grimacing every time I took a hit? I don't think so.

This isn't to knock glass boats and particularly those made by Millbrook. I'm convinced by what I've read here that they are tough canoes. But I have a friend who has one, and I've seen the repairs on his and heard his stories. You could say the same thing for Royalex--we've all had our hulls dinged, scraped, and in some cases cracked. But from my years of paddling Royalex boats, it's amazing how much abuse they can take and I'd rather take a Royalex boat down a rocky, technical low water run and not have to worry or fuss with it much than a glass boat.

Moving on to Twintex, I think one of my concerns there would be installing the tie points for barrels. Since it's hard to glue to Twintex, I would think it would be hard to install/customize the tie points to your liking. That's another great thing about Royalex--it's easy to glue to.

Gonna miss it. Hopefully my current fleet of Royalex boats will last me through the rest of my paddling career or until someone comes up with as good a material.