C-Forum

I'm now mentoring several people in C1 paddling, and they're struggling to get a good roll going, one of the fundamental problems being they're both very short, and are having issues leaning forwards and reaching up and out enough to roll... Rolling a canoe leaning back doesn't really work as most of us know.

Is there any input from people who have learned (or taught) to roll, who are short and dainty, rather than using gangly monkey arms for leverage and reach?

Sweep paddle underwater to initiate the roll, pulling the paddler to the surface... Flip paddle blade over and roll up. Works great because you can use your paddle blade to assist setup in nasty rolling places. I can post a video later if you want.

I'm 5'7 and like a short paddle. I can't get in an effective rolling position without sweeping first.

Dave

Start by teaching the low brace. Get them to go low enough to dip the top of their head in the water & brace back up. The shaft arm should be between the head & hips, not above or on the head. Top hand should be palm up.

I think too many people teach to swing out w/ the top hand palm down, then flip the paddle & roll. I tell folks to flip the paddle as you're flipping the boat. That way, when you swing out, you're ready to roll.

If the boat is short or difficult to roll, start the roll with the blade more towards the stern than perpendicular to the boat. It gives a longer stroke for boats that are slow to come up & prevents rolling up into a bow stall in short boats.

Also, 1 inch out of the water, your head weighs as much as a watermelon. In the water, your head is weightless. Think about holding a watermelon out beside your boat & what that would do to pull the boat back down.

Wouldn't mind seeing that video, Dave!

Cut the sides down, and put a deck on it!

truckeeboater wrote:Wouldn't mind seeing that video, Dave!

Cool. Just threw some clips together for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cATMYFE ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice how the boat is already near 90 degrees by the time I am in the 'normal' rolling position.

Dave

That was quick, thanks! I needed some inspiration for the next few months of knee rehab.

truckeeboater wrote:That was quick, thanks! I needed some inspiration for the next few months of knee rehab.

No worries. I'm in exams right now... Anything to help me procrastinate studying

Let me know what you think about the rolling.

Speaking of video, Cricket, could you post video of your paddlers rolling? Seeing how they are doing it could help aid feedback.

I can't tell without seeing footage of them, but I can tell about my personal experience. I've been struggling really really long with my roll. Starting to learn a kayak roll showed me I was missing the strength and coordination to drive from the hips long enough to get a decent roll.

So your solution might be in some dry-land training as well, improving strength and coordination, making the leaning forward a bit less important.
I know many would say it's not about strength, but I know first hand now, how much of an influence it has if your muscles don't fire enough or in the wrong order (hip muscles), so it can be about strength and coordination.

Short paddlers when upside down aren't as deep in the water and thus don't have to reach higher to the surface. Mind over matter may help.

Interesting aside Jakke, about kayak rolling.

I took a kayak roll session on Friday night, first a dry land white board illustration, and then a video, and then into the pool.
I got a lot out of it, made me look at my canoe roll with a different POV. Definitely got a better feeling for the effect of efficient technique over muscle (my OC style roll)
A friend came along to the session, new to kayaking and about 1-2 years into canoeing (without a roll) and he got a K roll. He is stoked.

Probably the big thing for a Beginner oc/k1 paddler to learn is that-- hey, This-can-actually-be-Done! I can actually do it!
Lots of kayakers get that hit on the first or second session, it is a positive hit, and they persevere.
I always felt that kayakers have a learning edge in that they learn defense first, then... they go play offence with attitude.

But canoeists often learn beginner Flatwater, then to intermediate Moving water canoe skills, and then go try to learn some roll defence as they get into steady grade 3 MW swim country. Some get it, some become effective in low bracing and that works for them, but many give up oc rolling, unfortunately.
If someone, and it won't be me, could come up with a method/program/whatever of teaching canoeists a roll closer to day one then they get the straight Hall of Fame shot, no shortlisting IMHO. Not such a crazy idea with the new hull designs that are showing up.

Yeah, I know the old saw, "come over to the K Darkside" but locally, in the B.C. Pacific Northwest, many of the best canoeists that I have paddled with and tried to emulate are also kayakers (and some are also rafters (without a roll))

Anyways, I'm blue skying here, riffing on Jakke's comment, but maybe learning to roll a canoe is easier by learning in a kayak!

I'm down to the saltwater estuary tomorrow with the Mamba and the Occoee to do a spring roll tune up before a road trip.
Whaddya think? Don't hold back, give me your best shot.
Einar

as an offside aside: the best rolling learning oc's for me were a Quake and a Genesis.

Einar wrote:maybe learning to roll a canoe is easier by starting in a kayak!

I actually have to disagree. I've taught a couple of people to roll and it is always way harder teaching a kayaker than someone that is new to paddling. The muscle memory from rolling a kayak makes them switch to a weird high brace thing part way up that kills the roll.

I might get some hate for this one, but I feel that the OC world overcomplicates the heck out of rolling.
Get your paddle to the surface somehow -> hip snap -> sweep your body back in the boat.
Start on the edge of the pool working on the hip snap, then try with a paddle. Video tape yourself and compare it to proper rolls. If there is something to fix, fix it. If there isn't, try going to the gym for a bit. A canoe is a lot of boat to move. I'm with jakke on this one, strength is definitely a factor.

Einar, I don't think my evolution should be taken as a representation. This for a couple of reasons

• I have a canoe roll for several years, in the pool, but it's not reliable on the river

• That is caused by a couple biomechanical issues

• I'm quite interested in biomechanics, so kayak rolling helped to improve my understanding in the biomechanics of a roll

• I've probably made every possible mistake when learning to roll, and still didn't manage to get it reliable (-> biomechanical issue)

I did have quite a bit orientation issues starting to roll a kayak, so from OC1 to K1 is not easy. Those who have a good K1 roll, can high brace roll an OC1 though.

Learning to roll is (partially) understanding/feeling how the movement goes, and then the skills to motorically execute that movement. I always include a part of rolling the boat externally and feeling/experiencing what the boat does to the body, before we even try to roll or hip-snap. Hip-snap is clear to those who can roll, but is a very vague thing to many novices.

I don't think K1 or C1 is harder or easier to learn. OC1 has the disadvantage of a higher boat to roll, but other then that, it's the same. I think it's more the process you're guiding your students through to learn to roll. And yes, a C1 or K1 flips over a bit faster due to the lower profile. So maybe you want to C1 roll before you OC1 roll.

btw, I really like the fact that most canoeist only start to roll after quite some river time. That makes them quite proficient at self-rescue.

TheKrikkitWars wrote:they're both very short, and are having issues leaning forwards and reaching up and out enough to roll...

I'm 5' 7" and have a short torso as well. While this combination makes for a great center of gravity while sitting in a canoe, I suppose some would consider it a disadvantage in terms of leverage. I've never really considered it to be a liability, but then I do have relatively long arms.

My personal experience when learning to roll was that I was initially overextending in order to gain that extra reach and leverage. Once I tightened things up I found a real and usable leverage. The major muscle groups came into play, and everything started clicking. The sprawled out feeling that always left me with too little purchase to finish the job went away. Now I seek the position of the "compressed spring" by nature. If I extend even a little too far, I've already lost some of my compression/power. Whatever your height and reach, you've got to put yourself into the best position to use what you've got. I don't know if that helps any, but it was a key for me personally.