C-Forum

After reading the intro to the beginners section I am posting this here. I apologize if it belongs in that section.

I'm currently looking to get back into whitewater canoeing, but my only local shop(western canoe in Abbotsford BC) doesn't have demo boats. They cary Mohawk, Mad River, and Esquif. Maybe you could give me some advice as to what boat I should be considering.

About Me:
I am 5'10.5" and between 190 and 210 lbs(depending on recent beer consumption), but I have shorter than average legs for my size(if that makes a difference).
I have canoed all my life, but only briefly did solo whitewater many years ago(though I did take a standardized Ontario Recreational Canoe Association instructors course at the time). Currently I am an experienced raft guide(2 full years) and confident class 3-4 (4 if i already know the layout or can scout) kayaker in an edgy boat(Piranha Nano, if you know it) .

My Typical River:
I paddle the Chilliwack river year round at all water levels.
At low water it is technical and very rocky(class 2-3+). Kayaks tend to get worn out here after a little over two seasons.
At high water it is pushy high volume class 3-4 continuous with features that easily flip 18foot rafts.
There is also a section that I can work up to that is 14km continuous class 4 that ranges from pushy high volume to very technical rocky depending on level.
I live on the shore of this river so it is where I paddle, and paddle often, and I know almost every rock and current in it.

Paddling Companions:
Raft guides who think I'm silly buying a canoe (or anything other than a creaking kayak for that matter), and who are unlikely to wait for me to empty a boat.

Thanks for any advice you can give,
Ian

P.S. if there is anyone in the Fraser valley of BC I would appreciate a paddling buddy once I get a boat, or even before that if you have a boat I could use.

You've mentioned the class of the water, but what are the rapids like? technical with lots of rocks? Big water? Big holes / waves?

Lots of good options out there (including the Black Fly Option, so pun intended:) ).

You also may want to consider a decked boat - no bailing;) There I would think the Finkenmeister would be a natural fit (plastic creek boat), but that is only from my assumption of the water you are paddling.

Welcome, and good luck on your boat search. If you look under "Boats" in the upper left you'll find several hundred (literally) whitewater canoes listed of all types, many with images, descriptions, and data.

You didn't mention whether Marlin Bayes at Western Canoe and Kayak has any Royalex Mohawk, Esquif, or Mad River whitewater canoes in stock. If not, do not necessarily plan to be able to get one new, because all Royalex production ceased permanently in April of this year. I am pretty certain that Mohawk has exhausted all stock of Royalex sheet for their whitewater models as has Mad River. Perhaps Esquif still has some sheet in inventory but when it is gone there will be no new Royalex canoes.

If they are available, Royalex models that would certainly be worth considering are the Mohawk Viper 11 and Viper 12, Mohawk Probe 11, Probe 12 and Probe 13, Mad River Outrage, and Esquif Nitro. But if you anticipate doing a lot of paddling in low water, abrasive conditions a Royalex boat might not be your best choice anyway as Royalex abrades pretty severely.

You are probably aware that Marlin Bayes builds Clipper Canoes right there in Abbotsford. You could call him an arrange to tour his facility if you like. Although they are not currently shown on the Clipper website, Marlin builds a Viper 11 (11' 6"), Viper 12 (12' 6"), Probe 11 (11' 8"), and Probe 12 (12' 8"). The Probe 12 is the composite equivalent to the original Mohawk Probe 12 that was later renamed the Probe 13. He builds these out of a very tough S 'glass, Kevlar layup he calls Duraflex. There is relatively little, if any, weight savings over Royalex depending on whether you have the boat gel-coated and what gauge aluminum gunwales you choose. These boats are more abrasion resistant than Royalex, and being stiffer, they also paddle better.

Otherwise a polyethylene boat is probably your best bet. Mad River never made a polyethylene whitewater OC-1. Mohawk has been working on one for years now but some of us are losing hope that it will ever reach the market. Esquif makes the L'Edge, L'Edge Lite, Taureau, and the Prelude. They also make the Zephyr out of a non-Royalex material called Twin-tex. Of these either the L'Edge or L'Edge Lite would probably be your best choice. The Taureau has met a sort of mixed reception. The Zephyr has been plagued by cracks and is difficult to repair. The Prelude has quite a learning curve for many and is probably not the best choice for a first OC-1. But the L'Edge is quite user-friendly and dry and has been a runaway success for Esquif.

If you are concerned that your paddling companions are not going to be willing to wait for you to bail, plan on putting a pump in the boat. In fact, plan on putting a pump in the boat regardless.

I'd suggest making a beeline to the Tamihi Five-O Open Canoe Slalom being held on the Chilliwack Sept 13-14. Should be lots of open boats there and people willing to let you try them between or on runs through the course. See: http://www3.telus.net/~soloboat/

Sadly I can't make the tamahi day since I'm on a brief vacation.
As for the type of water, it varies alot with water level. At high water it is pushy big water, and at low water it is tight, technical, and rocky.
Wouldn't the black fly option be very expensive to ship to Canada?
Thanks for the advice.

Another option - if you want a decked boat would be a C1 made by River Elf - the Storm Chaser. They're in northern Alabama and will ship, but don't know how much extra that would cost. They make composite boats - kevlar and some s-glass with extra reinforcements in spots; they make their boats to be tough. Granted, no composite boat will take abuse like a plastic boat, but these are made for creeking/river running. I think a boat made as a C1 is more comfortable and a better choice than a kayak outfitted as a C1 (at least my opinion). I have a boat from them and I like it a lot. They'll cut the boat to various sizes to accommodate various weights of paddlers. Chris at River Elf would give you very good service and work diligently to get you a boat that's right for you. In case you're interested their website is: http://www.riverelf.com

Happy boat hunting.

PS If you get a boat from River Elf, Snapdragon has a template to make a sprayskirt for their boat, and the Snapdragon skirt works very well with the River Elf boat.

Forgot to mention another (IMHO) advantage of a composite boat - weight. My boat was just under 22 lbs before outfitting with seats and thight straps. Even after that it isn't any more than about 25 lbs.

Hi Ian,

P.S. if there is anyone in the Fraser valley of BC I would appreciate a paddling buddy once I get a boat, or even before that if you have a boat I could use.

Two words: Roscoe & The Geoff

Roscoe & Geoff are in or near the valley and canoe all sections of the Chilliwack all the time. They've got a good crew of kayakers who accept them. They also have multiple pumps in their boats. They are by far your best bet to join canoes on the Chilliwack! And could tell how about the experience/cost of getting an Octane here.

There's also a local forum where we local canoeists organize trips etc.: http://paddlenet.myfastforum.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, there's been lots of canoes on the Chilliwack in the past few weeks, though at this low flow it's pretty much limited to Trailer Park to Osborne, and getting tight, or even dry, in places. The Chilliwack is a huge distance of awesome canoeing river!

If you live on the river and will paddle frequently, you'll probably wear out boats regardless of the material, the Chilliwack can be pretty bashy, Royalex doesn't last too long there - Roscoe & Geoff have given up on Royalex, they paddle an Octane tandem and L'Edges solo.

Western is the best/only local place to look at solo ww boats, so spend some time with them, maybe you can convince them to use the L'Edge Lite as a demo? They've given us demo boats in the past for the Tamihi Five-0. Too bad you can't make the T50, it's definitely your best chance to see canoes and meet canoeists.

I'm about your size, sadly a little heavier, and FWIW my last boat search was narrowed down to the Viper 12, L'Edge, Ocoee or Hellman Otter. Many other small/modern boats I find just don't carry my weight well enough or are too wet.

In plastic, I guess you're looking at an Octane, L'Edge or Option. I tried on Octane the other day, but the feel of it is a little different - it seems like a blunt instrument in look & feel, but may be what you want if you're into the high-water creeking more than technical rock gardens.

If you can't get the boat you want right away, or don't know which boat you want, you could just a get a cheap one and get started - Rick ("Pierre" on here and PaddleNet) from the island knew of some glass Viper 12s at cheap costs, there'd be nothing wrong with starting in one of those, and they might last longer than Royalex chines anyway!

Express your interest on the local PaddleNet forum and maybe folks will find boats for sale or loan. If you're interested in trying C-1, I've got a Fink you could try.

There's not a lot of open boaters out here, so it's exciting to come on c-boats and find a stranger posting from the Chilliwack river!! You sure you can't make it to Tamihi on the 13th or 14th?

Good luck! Pat.

p.s. Add something like "in Chilliwack, BC" to your subject line and you might get some more local responses(or just post on PaddleNet)

What the others said ^ ^ ^

Western does have a few WW boats on hand, and sometimes can get boats brought in with minimal delay, IF they can find a truck headed west. Generally, they'll work hard to get you going.

I might add that I've bought both a River Elf and an Option within the last couple of years, and had them shipped directly from factory to Everett WA, via FEDEX. The shipping price was reasonable.

And if the flows aren't right on the mainland, we paddle all winter long on the Island!

Rick

Rick, Are those Viper 12s still for sale? (Or anything else you know of?)

P.

yarnellboat wrote:Rick, Are those Viper 12s still for sale? . . .

ONE Viper-12 f/s (Clipper composite); old and well used, but solid; outfitting could use some TLC; $450; Pix on request.

(hee hee hee -- Nice segue, Pat!)

Rick

Thanks so much for the advice and info from all.

I've been to western and looked at all the boats, but now I'm on vacation on Vancouver Island so I have time to make up my mind.
I'm going to have to get together with some of the locals when I get back home.

I am starting to consider L'edge vs Octane 91 vs Option. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the impressions I get from reading online:
The L'Edge is locally available, and seems like a good all around boat... It kinda sets the bar for a stable PE boat.

The Option seems to be a more maneuverable, but slower, boat than the l'edge. Also not quite as dry? It may not support bigger paddlers as well if I go through a horizontal growth spurt (or if I try to get my 230lb friend into OC1)

The Octane 91 seems to be a bit faster and dryer, but less maneuverable than the l'edge. I may be too light for it though since the hull was designed (chine level, width) for the weight and power of two paddlers. Unless I'm mistaken, the l'edge would be better in the tight technical low water, but the Octane would be better in the pushy forceful big water?

The option just strikes me as a boat that would be good once I get better at this, but would take a while before I could handle the bigger water. So I am thinking more L'edge vs Octane.

Thanks,
Ian

now I'm on vacation on Vancouver Island

Careful, Rick will track you down and put you in a boat!

When you're back at your river, keep your eyes (and ears!) peeled for Roscoe & Geoff. Look forward to paddling with you.

Pat.

p.s. I generally agree with your notes - as a heavier guy who wants a boat that's dry and leanable/manouverable, I'm guessing I'd personally go for the L'Edge Lite (or just a cheap, used Outrage or Viper that might be handy, and cheap) - but of course what's "dry" or "manouverable" has a lot of personal preference to it. I do agree that the L'Edges are widely held as good boats with a wide range of benefits, whereas fans of the Octane or Option might be more specific audiences? (Keeping in mind I really know nothing about these boats.)

CanadIan wrote:Thanks so much for the advice and info from all.

I've been to western and looked at all the boats, but now I'm on vacation on Vancouver Island so I have time to make up my mind.
I'm going to have to get together with some of the locals when I get back home.

I am starting to consider L'edge vs Octane 91 vs Option. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the impressions I get from reading online:
The L'Edge is locally available, and seems like a good all around boat... It kinda sets the bar for a stable PE boat.

The Option seems to be a more maneuverable, but slower, boat than the l'edge. Also not quite as dry? It may not support bigger paddlers as well if I go through a horizontal growth spurt (or if I try to get my 230lb friend into OC1)

The Octane 91 seems to be a bit faster and dryer, but less maneuverable than the l'edge. I may be too light for it though since the hull was designed (chine level, width) for the weight and power of two paddlers. Unless I'm mistaken, the l'edge would be better in the tight technical low water, but the Octane would be better in the pushy forceful big water?

The option just strikes me as a boat that would be good once I get better at this, but would take a while before I could handle the bigger water. So I am thinking more L'edge vs Octane.

Thanks,
Ian

if you think you are to light for the Octane 91 then you might look at the Octane 85

CanadIan wrote: . . . I am starting to consider L'edge vs Octane 91 vs Option.
The Option seems to be a more maneuverable, but slower, boat than the l'edge. Also not quite as dry? It may not support bigger paddlers as well . . . So I am thinking more L'edge vs Octane. . .

Coupla quick additional comments about L'Edge vs Option.

Speedwise, you may be right, though neither boat will set speed records in cruising mode. I wouldn't let that criterion colour my choice. Far as dryness is concerned, the Option is probably ahead -- the ends are more bulbous than the L'Edge. The Option is like a beachball. The L'Edge carves better into or out of eddies, and on surf waves. But these issues are relatively minor.

YOUR biggest concern should be your weight and experience. The Option has enough volume for you, but you would prob'ly feel much more comfortable, from a stability point of view, in the L'Edge.

By all means look at Octanes -- 85 (as Skeeter suggests) or 91, IF you can find them -- I'm not aware of any in BC, but what the he!! do I know?

As Pat has suggested there are at least 3 L'Edges in the Chilliwack area. And there are 2 on the Island. TRY before you BUY! (There's only one Option that I know of, but you wouldn't fit into the outfitting. But drop by and you can look at it!)

Good luck!

Rick