C-Forum

Having patched my Maverick at the weekend I decided to try to learn to paddle it on flat water before trying to negotiate the concrete course designed for 3.5m boats again.
I thought I was in luck when I arrived at the centre yesterday and saw the poles over the course, but it was kids with them double ended sticky things training, no C1's.

Perhaps if I describe the centre....
It was a canal basin, which has been separated from the canal and a short pumped whitewater course added to the end of one side of the basin. One half of the basin is still all the time (used to coaching and polo), when the course is running the other half becomes a massive eddy - fast moving but flat (except for right at the course exit). The last few gates for the course are in the eddy - there are a couple of upstreams either side of the exit drop (one seems to have been removed altogether) which are usually pulled out of the way for non-slalom sessions, then at the first corner the outflow hits there is a downstream tight to the wall after the turn (left), followed by another downstream just to the left of the main flow and then a long way down is an upstream on the left edge of the main flow (but to the right the previous gate), just before the eddy turns left again (I suspect due to shallow pad being added at that point to allow swimmers to stand up).

My club has half an hour of flat water before the pumps go on, so I used that time to paddle around and get through the final 3 gates in still water.

Forward paddling - I'm trying to lean well forward making an 'A' at the catch (need a spotter really to tell me if I'm keeping my back straight) and trying to pull against a hip thrust taking the blade out at my hips and only using occasional corrections, but I don't seem to be getting it! I'm trying to build up speed gradually to avoid needing too much correction, but I still seem to need correction of every stroke, and I'm defaulting to a J or pry. My cross deck seems ineffective for correction (I think I am too nervous to commit enough trunk rotation to it at present, it works fine in my Ocoee where I have no such inhibition), and I don't seem to be able to use opposite edge on it's own, I am always thowing in a J or pry at the same time.

Later on when the pumps were on and I was going round the eddy I tried paddling much harder which seemed to make it easier to go straight, but my bow was going up and down like a yoyo! Is this normal? Do I need to be always paddling that hard to keep the boat under control, and should it pitch fairly violently or do I need to try to learn to paddle hard without moving my wieght forwards and aft so much?

There isn't much point trying to analyse any other techiniques until I get forward paddling down - I can pivot turning right (righty paddler) but the stern only goes very shallow and I need to get a better feel for how quickly to flatten off the edge because it likes to stall pretty soon. To the left, well that's mostly lack of commitment to edging against the cross bow rudder/draw, although I feel like I should be getting more inititiation from a right forward sweep to start with but it has little effect.

Breaking in - in kayak playboat I tend to use a lot of edge for sharp break ins, seems to me that the Maverick wants a lot less edge, and flattening off pretty quick after the turn? Again this may just be confidence since the direction of the eddy means I am always breaking in on my left.... (there is a small eddy to the right of the exit drop but it's hard to get into at my current level and everywhere else the flow is up against a wall to the right).

Obviously it would be much easier if I had another C1 to watch/learn from, or some way to video myself for critique, but is there anything from what I describe that you guys can pick up as stuff to correct, or that is good and I need to do more of?

Here are some hints:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... he+project" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
See part 4 especially.

I've always had to finish my stroke with the "end" of a C (but very subtle) in order to keep the boat straight. What also helps to push the boat to the paddle side is a slight lean to the opposite side. That characteristic may vary from boat-to-boat though. The faster you go, the better the offside lean works. In squirrelly water it's not all that stable, so I may resort to a cross-bow.

Cheers Bob - I found part 1 before and gave up because it didn't seem to actually be going anywhere in terms of actual stroke stuff - part 4 seems to cover the basics pretty well though.

Looks like I do need an explosive technique to get the boat on the plane and keep it there as Robin describes, feels like I am pitching a lot more than him but maybe that's because my stroke rate is too low so I'm dropping back between strokes, or simply that I'm too heavy for my boat (which I am).

The forward stroke in a slalom canoe can probably be considered the most frustrating part of moving the boat forward. It'll take lots of practicing and trial and error to find what works for you. At some point, all the drills you practice will become automatic and you'll find moving the canoe straight not so hard after all. But you gotta drill and drill and drill to get there. Lots of flatwater practicing helps. Contact Davey Hearn and see if he still has copies of the "Canoe and Kayak Slalom Technique Stroke Drills" video lying around. I used those canoe drills extensively (and some one-on-one instructions) and still use them today. I found them useful in developing boat handling skills that help keep the boat straight. As Bob P. pointed out, keeping the slalom boat straight is not just a stroke thing. Knowing how to balance and edge your boat helps a lot. One suggestion is to make sure you keep the shaft vertical with the inside edge of blade passing along, or under, the hull of the boat. And then there are variations of that, too. Also, keeping your bodyweight on your seat and off your knees will help eliminate the bobbing of the bow. Think of lifting the bow with your knees as you plant your paddle at the start of the stroke.

Have fun with it.

Maybe because I'm big, tall, and stupid, I can stroke cab-forward on either edge and the boat will run straight. Zealot, Synergy, Millbrooks, MR Guide, any of them. I might needd a J correction every 10 strokes or less. I must be doing something seriously wrong.

The trick is that a firm catch shoves the bow against a lump of water, and during recovery the lump of water pushes the bow back to the paddle side. Magical.

You guys are all better than me, so I'm sure I'm on the wrong path.

Bob P, I've studied your videos extensively. You do J stroke, but you do it properly with the paddle shaft still vertical, so that the blade doesn't dddrrraaaaggg the boat like a goon stroke. Bob Foote also recommends a J with the shaft still vertical, or no J at all, whichever is needed for the stroke in question.

It is hilarious how many know it all instructors teach the dragging or trailing J, stressing how the thumb should turn down. If the thumb turns down, I know the blade is dragging.

Here's an invitation to opinion. Can a c-1 or oc-1 paddler get maximum speed by his torso going forward and back?

Do most hulls get and keep good speed if they bob up and down with the paddler's efforts, or if they run more or less level?

Recently I saw British videos, one of a slalom c-2 that ran wonderfully smooth, no torso humping, and of a c-1 paddler (I think it was Bob Foster) who was humping wildly with his torso, the boat bobbing in the water. Surprisingly, the Brits who posted the video thought the c-1 was running smooth.

My opinion, and what I strive for, is that the torso should not hump forth and back at the hips, though some torso flexion is part of the stroke power. I think the boat hull should run fairly level for best speed and efficiency.

In the Olympics, you can see the champions running bow up, but in my opinion they do this because of the holes and waves on the difficult courses. If you watch a really good slalom paddler on an easy course (C-1 Challenge for example) you will see much less humping and hulls running closer to level.

Having looked at a bunch more videos and read even more descriptions today, I suspect I am not rotating my trunk enough but moving my whole body back and forth. Watching the good guys on the flat they do move the body a bit but seem to be keeping the boat more level presumably by not putting too much weight on the knees (a theme I'm seeing mentioned a lot) and doing most of the stroke right forward only sitting up for the recovery. I may need a bit more foam on my pedestal so I can transfer weight through my bum instead of my ankles, I'm just nervous about getting too high and affecting my stability.

Thanks guys!

Hey, Jim. Here is a link to the slalom forward stroke from our own site. It also includes additional links to Davey Hearn which has a link to the British slalom site:

https://cboats.net/technique/

Have fun!

KNeal wrote:Hey, Jim. Here is a link to the slalom forward stroke from our own site. It also includes additional links to Davey Hearn which has a link to the British slalom site:

https://cboats.net/technique/

Have fun!

That's where I started from (of course!), but those diagrams and the text are quite complex to get my head around! The BCU videos did help but are kind of thumbnail sized.

The boat in those videos does seem to pitch around more like I'm doing, maybe I am doing it about right when I really give it everything and just need to do that all the time....

If you haven't noticed from the other links, you can keep the boat from bobbing with this technique:
As you lean forward for the catch (with the body rotated, of course), keep your upper hand near your head. That will place the paddle at an angle, so when the stroke starts there is an initial partial force down to counteract the weight shift from the forward lean.

JimW wrote:Having looked at a bunch more videos and read even more descriptions today, I suspect I am not rotating my trunk enough but moving my whole body back and forth.

In addition to what others have said, I'll chime in with reinforcement of your observation above. Ideally you want to mainly use torso rotation to reach forward for the catch and then unwind that rotation to pull back on the paddle. This does mitigate to a degree the amount of weight shifted forward, but more importantly it engages your latissimus dorsi - the largest muscles running down your back - to provide additional power to your stroke.

John

Cheers Bob and John.

I suppose I should probably admit at this point that before Tuesday night's session my right trapezius (I think) was still a bit sore just above latissimus dorsi from several sessions of kayak playboating over the previous few days - I'd had plenty of ibuprofen and rubbed diclofenac cream into it and wasn't wincing as I had been earlier in the day, but probably I wasn't rotating as well as I might due to subconscious protection instinct.... I didn't feel it at all whilst on the water (even though I got in the kayak to throw some ends for a while in between) but it might have affected my paddling. I would have cried off but I really wanted to get out in the C1 having just patched it!

The paddler should feel, should clearly perceive the torso rotation during power delivery. But the rotation is not gigantic, and to an observer on the bank it may be difficult to see.

I think some teachers like Bob Foote show an exaggerated rotation that if used routinely, would distort the stroke and carry the blade well back past the hip.

Shorter guys may need more visible rotation, taller guys less. I have a very long torso, and while I can feel torso rotation contributing to the stroke, I don't rotate much at the shoulders.

Bob's point about the paddle being angled forward at the catch is excellent, but the mechanics of the initial catch also tend to support the paddler.

If I can link properly*, these links to a UK slalom paddling series will show c2 paddlers who are sharp and smooth. Their torsos move upward a bit to help with blade extraction. Otherwise they are pretty steady. The boat is slanted up some because of their effort.

http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/view-c ... p?skill=64" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Here is their solo paddler. There is much more boat horsing, and because the bow rises so much out of the water with each stroke, the paddler does not get the corrective benefit of the push-back during recovery of the water mound raised during the power phase. The late frames show spray coming off the non paddle side which should have occurred along the bow, if he had kept the bow down. Perhaps my pin-the-bow method will not work under ferocious full power, I don't know. But what he is doing does not look efficient.

http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/view-c ... p?skill=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ideally, the boat hull should run straight and smooth. But perhaps applying full power and running the hull straight and smooth are mutually exclusive?

*The links do not go through all the way to the film clips. But if you use them and select what I am talking about (c-1 forward strokes, and c-1 forward strokes), you'll get where you want to go.