Although I do occasionally roll successfully, I don't think I have ever felt that "hip snap" people talk about. I've watched dozens of videos and I can tell that in a good roll, the boater's head stays down at the water line, while at the same time his weight shifts from his on-side to his off-side at the hips. It is that shift of weight that eludes me.
Is there an exercise that one can do on land that replicates that movement?
Dry land rolling practice
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Re: Dry land rolling practice
An impressive find.
Thanks for posting/sharing.
Thanks for posting/sharing.
Brian
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busterblue
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Re: Dry land rolling practice
I think of it as pulling up with my onside knee while pushing down with my offside knee. Mostly, I focus of feeling pressure on the top of my onside thigh (against the straps or bulkhead).It is that shift of weight that eludes me.
I think Bob Foote's canoe roll video starts out with practicing on dry land. Flop the boat onto the side with your body on the ground perpendicular to the boat. Put both hands on the ground and twist your torso so you're facing the floor. Then practice rocking the boat back up while keeping your head down as much as possible. At some point, the boat will get in your way. But try to keep your head down as much as possible, as if you're reading the logo on the side of your boat.Is there an exercise that one can do on land that replicates that movement?
Here's a link to Bob Foote's excellent dvd:
http://whitewatervideo.com/Foote.htm
You can do the same thing in the water by holding the edge of the pool or (even better) the bow of a decked boat. Get your face in the water and just practice rolling the boat with your hips, back and forth. It's a basic training exercise, but that's still how I warm up for roll practice.
The name "hip snap" confused me in the beginning because it sounds like a fast...well, snap. In my mind, it's more about engaging your onside knee while your upper body is in the correct position (sweeping out away from the boat, head down, looking at the bottom of the river).
Re: Dry land rolling practice
I would also say it's more of a steady, but strong, simultaneous push/pull from opposite knees but I also find it important to slide my body over to the centre of the boat (or maybe slightly past it, briefly) at the same time (keeping my head down).
Re: Dry land rolling practice
Well, not much lately. Six feet of snow on the ground and it hits single digits (F) just about every night. Even if I could find some open water the ice cream headache would be pretty fierce. Can't pool roll. I seem to be allergic to the chlorine or something.
But when the weather is good I'll be at a local lake a few hours a week. Some days I get most of them, others almost none. But exactly what it is that makes it work continues to escape me, at least as a matter of muscle memory. I understand the theory of it just fine. I'll be at ALF; that's the next chance I'll have to try it.
But when the weather is good I'll be at a local lake a few hours a week. Some days I get most of them, others almost none. But exactly what it is that makes it work continues to escape me, at least as a matter of muscle memory. I understand the theory of it just fine. I'll be at ALF; that's the next chance I'll have to try it.
Re: Dry land rolling practice
A few hours a week is a lot.
People always want to make rolling more complicated than it is.
3 steps
1. Get your paddle blade and upper body near the surface
2. Roll the boat with your lower body (legs and abs). You should be able to get it upright with your head still in the water.
3. When (and only when) the boat is upright, quickly swing your upper body into the boat, keeping your head low. Some think of it as a low brace….
In open canoes the steps are distinct.
Don't skip steps. Don't rush steps.
You can practice the 3 steps individually.
The little details of how achieve these steps don't matter.
People always want to make rolling more complicated than it is.
3 steps
1. Get your paddle blade and upper body near the surface
2. Roll the boat with your lower body (legs and abs). You should be able to get it upright with your head still in the water.
3. When (and only when) the boat is upright, quickly swing your upper body into the boat, keeping your head low. Some think of it as a low brace….
In open canoes the steps are distinct.
Don't skip steps. Don't rush steps.
You can practice the 3 steps individually.
The little details of how achieve these steps don't matter.
...
Re: Dry land rolling practice
I'd like to contest that rolling is not difficult. It all depends on your motoric skills, mobility, flexibility and strenght (of the right muscles).
Some examples for your 3 steps:
1. raising the head and looking up to the surface compromises your spine position and hance your ability to work properly with the lower body to roll the boat.
2. What is exactly the rolling motion, what is a hip flick, ... ? There isn't much of a difference in a canoe or kayak roll, if you check out the smooth and effortless rolls. It's not a side to side motion we make, but a rotational motion. It's like doing a high kick with your onside leg, offside leg is your bracing leg. By doing that high kick (with upright torso) you rotate AND tilt your hips.
3. This really depends on your body composture. Some people, like me, just get "drawn in" after a certain amount of rotation at the hips. Others have an insane disconnection between uppper and lower body. They have to move their upper body in actively.
So my recommendation would be to work on core stability and mobility.
Some examples:
Learn to do good form planks and side planks.
Learn good form ball rollouts (ii, extended arms with neutral, stablised spine => your setup)
You probably need to strengthen gluteus medius for the rotational movement so
good form squats
single leg squats
good form lunges
Combination of extended arms, stable spine and rotation can be trained for example with a bear squat, but adding rotation at the deepest squatted position.
working from your hips and keeping the upper body low, can be trained by doing a sweeping motion when seated in a shinbox for example. That really helps to keep the disconnection between upper and lower body.
Hip mobility can be trained for example with windshield wipers.
Now beware, there is lots of nonsense out there on the internet. Proper form exercises are important! One example, if you are training the gluteus medius improperly, you're strengthening often the TFL, which is exactly what you don't want for rolling. There are a lot of tiny details to pay attention to.
The exact rolling motion is hard to train on dry land (I've been searching for good simulations for years, and haven't found one yet to my satisfaction. But the above tips allow you to train the key components to a fluent and strong roll. Oh, and it'll improve your general paddling too btw
.
Some examples for your 3 steps:
1. raising the head and looking up to the surface compromises your spine position and hance your ability to work properly with the lower body to roll the boat.
2. What is exactly the rolling motion, what is a hip flick, ... ? There isn't much of a difference in a canoe or kayak roll, if you check out the smooth and effortless rolls. It's not a side to side motion we make, but a rotational motion. It's like doing a high kick with your onside leg, offside leg is your bracing leg. By doing that high kick (with upright torso) you rotate AND tilt your hips.
3. This really depends on your body composture. Some people, like me, just get "drawn in" after a certain amount of rotation at the hips. Others have an insane disconnection between uppper and lower body. They have to move their upper body in actively.
So my recommendation would be to work on core stability and mobility.
Some examples:
Learn to do good form planks and side planks.
Learn good form ball rollouts (ii, extended arms with neutral, stablised spine => your setup)
You probably need to strengthen gluteus medius for the rotational movement so
good form squats
single leg squats
good form lunges
Combination of extended arms, stable spine and rotation can be trained for example with a bear squat, but adding rotation at the deepest squatted position.
working from your hips and keeping the upper body low, can be trained by doing a sweeping motion when seated in a shinbox for example. That really helps to keep the disconnection between upper and lower body.
Hip mobility can be trained for example with windshield wipers.
Now beware, there is lots of nonsense out there on the internet. Proper form exercises are important! One example, if you are training the gluteus medius improperly, you're strengthening often the TFL, which is exactly what you don't want for rolling. There are a lot of tiny details to pay attention to.
The exact rolling motion is hard to train on dry land (I've been searching for good simulations for years, and haven't found one yet to my satisfaction. But the above tips allow you to train the key components to a fluent and strong roll. Oh, and it'll improve your general paddling too btw
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Pierre LaPaddelle
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Re: Dry land rolling practice
Good thread! But a quick question about technique -- especially Ian's # 3 above:ian123 wrote:
3. When (and only when) the boat is upright, quickly swing your upper body into the boat, keeping your head low. Some think of it as a low brace….
Boats these days (eg. L'Edge, Option,) are built much deeper or "higher". AND add the bulk in the front of the PFD. It seems to be harder to keep the head and body (center of gravity) low and close to the boat during the last phase of the roll.
Comments / suggestions, please. . .
Rick
C'est l'aviron. . . !
Re: Dry land rolling practice
Another good video instruction by Dr Phil.
You know, Phil's a great guy... but if I saw that guy hangin' 'round a playground like that 'round dusk, I'd probably call the cops.
You know, Phil's a great guy... but if I saw that guy hangin' 'round a playground like that 'round dusk, I'd probably call the cops.
JD
Re: Dry land rolling practice
I've never heard anyone make rolling sound more difficult than Jakke.
Rick, most would agree that the new designs still roll really well despite being quite deep…. just keep your head as low as you can.
Rick, most would agree that the new designs still roll really well despite being quite deep…. just keep your head as low as you can.
...
Re: Dry land rolling practice
Clearly I am talking to people who live in a world that is not the same of those of us whose upper and lower bodies are (as so clearly stated earlier in this thread) "insanely disconnected." People like me who have trouble with it often experience the following: you've set up just right, your body is 90 degrees to the boat and flat on the surface, your paddle is in the low brace position and is essentially an extension of your body, thus increasing the leverage. You've done all the exercises and had a good breakfast, prayed for help from above. You've watched Dr. Phil's videos over and over. The boat is pretty much on its side. You do a "crunch" trying to lift your onside knee to your forehead. The boat starts to roll to the tipping point, and.........Merde! You fall back in. And you did not pick up your head.
Now you have my situation exactly. How do I get that last little bit of roll to get me past the tipping point? Is there not some kind of weight shifting at that point that gets you over the edge? Or is the problem earlier in the process? How and when do you give yourself the momentum you need?
Now you have my situation exactly. How do I get that last little bit of roll to get me past the tipping point? Is there not some kind of weight shifting at that point that gets you over the edge? Or is the problem earlier in the process? How and when do you give yourself the momentum you need?
Re: Dry land rolling practice
It's sounds like your either skipping or rushing step 2 but it's difficult to tell without seeing. Try practicing step 1 and 2 without 3 and take some video. The boat should be upright before you finish your roll.
If I can think of it, I ll take some video on Sunday and send it your way.
If I can think of it, I ll take some video on Sunday and send it your way.
...
Re: Dry land rolling practice
I have experienced the same problem as you've described especially when changing from one boat to another and trying to use the same technique on each boat. I found that if I make myself hold the head down and read the logo on the side of the boat and when you think the boat is upright continue to keep the head down and reading the logo and when you think the boat is upright.......get the picture? Try it if you haven't already.