C-Forum

I was recently on a pleasure cruise with a bunch of friends on a local easy class II river. One of my friends wrapped his boat on the trickiest (arguably only "real") rapid on the trip. I was the only one in the group with any clue on how to unpin a tandem canoe full of water, and went about setting up a z drag with a separate vector line, using every piece of gear/rope I had brought. Fortunately, I had all I needed for a text book set up and the rope trick worked. Thanks, SWR training and the "River Rescue" book!

Unfortunately, the prussick loops I had for the z drag were slightly too big for the throw rope I was using, and they slipped a good deal before firmly biting on the rope. The result is that my almost brand new dyneema rope ($90new) has some weird bulges now that to me indicate a compromise of integrity.

So, does my buddy owe me a throw rope, or is it on me since I volunteered my gear and knowledge?

He definitely knew what he was getting into, and had run the river multiple times and willingly took a tricky line. He actually went ahead without scouting while I got out to look, so the pin is totally on him, in my opinion. But, I didn't tell him before working out the rescue that it could f up some of my gear. His boat is ok, but will need some new outfitting.

Opinions?

... my almost brand new dyneema rope ($90new) has some weird bulges now that to me indicate a compromise of integrity...

Without a photo of the rope it's hard to say, but it sounds like the sheath just slipped. The rope is probably fine if that's all it is.

Get it wet, and hang the trouble sections (with a wide margin of rope on on either side) with some weight, and work the sheath to try to get it to even out.

Core damage is what you need to worry about, to check this pinch the rope between your fingers, working along the entire length of the rope. Spots that feel significantly thinner or softer than the rest of the rope can indicate the core has been damaged. This test assumes you have got the sheath problem worked out in advance.

So, does my buddy owe me a throw rope, or is it on me...

My climbing partners and I have an agreement that we share equally the cost of gear that is lost or damaged on a climb. But that is an agreement made ahead of time, with everyone's consent.

If indeed the rope was trashed, I wouldn't ask for payment. But I would bring it up in conversation that the rope was damaged and I had to buy a new one -- giving my friend an opportunity to make a donation.

But if he didn't, I wouldn't get upset about it, or ask him outright for the money.

Well said, Mr. Parker.

If you had done further damage to his boat and maybe things didn't work out so well, would you have been willing to pay for the damage to his boat? Very slippery slope. -M-

magicmike wrote:If you had done further damage to his boat and maybe things didn't work out so well, would you have been willing to pay for the damage to his boat? Very slippery slope. -M-

I always carry a disclaimer in triplicate form that the person to be rescued or boat owner must sign before I rescue or save the boat..... It's a lot of trouble to get all that equipment out.

It's just part of the sport. What goes around, comes around, so don't even give it another thought. It's all good.

You got to be kidding.

What nick said!!

It is something often overlooked that the ratio of prusik diameter to rope diameter is important to ensure the prusik grips properly.

In this case I would have to say that the damage is down to your poor choice of prusik cord (been there myself).
I would probably go further though and point out that Dyneema lines are used so they can be light and thin, and are probably not ideal for hauling systems anyway - great for carrying on you as a throwline, but you really want to consider carrying a heavier, thicker line in your boat for hauling if you are going to be carrying a lightweight line for throwing. Which said, there is no need for everyone in a group to have a hauling line, but if you are going to be carrying an unsuitable line you should probably check that someone else has something suitable.
To be honest that's all theoretical, I almost never consult with the people I paddle with over who is carrying what rescue kit, I generally carry 1 or 2 throwlines of marginal diameter but rarely pack a pin kit - so rarely that before heading out to Corsica (where I thought I may need it) I actually had to replace most of it based on the condition I found it in. So I'm certainly not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do/carry because it would by hypocritical, I'll just suggest that dyneema lines probably aren't ideal for hauling.

So the question is, do you feel the dyneema line is too badly compromised to work effectively as a throwline only?
I share you concern about ever using it for a high load hauling operation again but if it is going to be fine with just a swimmer on the end is there a problem?

Couple thoughts...
1. Your safety gear really isn't for you... its for your buddies (well sort of... see #3). That said its in their best interest that a. you have it, b. you know how to use it, c. its in good working order

The result is that my almost brand new dyneema rope ($90new) has some weird bulges now that to me indicate a compromise of integrity.

and d. they have a complementary set up to support you in time of your need.
2. If they are truly your paddling buddies they will make things right (might take a while) - that is if they understand #1 above.
3. If your having the gear with you, actually having to use it and then having to replace save someone's life --- its a much cheaper price than living with the alternative. Ok maybe saving a boat is a little bit different but its still an "Oh Crap!" reality check moment.

Showing up to paddle without even a basic safety gear kit is kind of an insult to those you paddle with IMHO. Says they are not worth the effort. The reserve is true too!!

I get it... float bags, caribinners, safety ropes, pulleys etc. cost money when you could spend the cash on beer or other.

This includes your personal gear... helmet, PFD, shoes, etc. I'm not saying you have to have the latest or greatest of everthing. Basics are best - My $.01.

I say let it slide - use as a lesson learned - check to see if they have a kit in good working order! That is more in your interest!

Excellent question to ask for personal opinions.

Here is mine:

He owes you really good (craft) beer. But that is how I resolves issues.

On the tangent of the prusik being to large for the climbing rope. A friend of mine showed me a Sterling Rope Hollow block which is designed to be used as a prusik loop on really small diameter rope, seems like a good option for anyone using a throw bag small diameter throw bag as their pin rope. I know I am looking into getting a couple to try out.

http://www.sterlingrope.com/c/climbing_ ... 114348.0.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ooow you bought YOURSELF a $90 rope. #$%#@#@%$# you buy a rope for your friends on the water not YOU.

hazardharry wrote:ooow you bought YOURSELF a $90 rope. #$%#@#@%$# you buy a rope for your friends on the water not YOU.

I buy the equipment for myself and others, Harry. The person I help may be me or my family. I have two large rope bags and a smaller one I wear around my waist.

I got certified in swift water rescue for myself/family and others.

I remember years ago when I was on a Winter hike on the AT a wife of a friend was concerned her husband was not prepared. My wife explained that Chuck brings enough for himself and others.

I'm with Larry.