C-Forum

Wondering if anyone can advise for or against an idea. Say I have a boat I really like to paddle and they do not make it anymore. Could I just use the existing hull to act as a plug for making a fiberglass mold? I would of course take the gunnels off. Are there concerns with this approach?

In the alternative, how do people make plugs?

Thanks for any advice or feedback?

Keith

i'm sure someone has done that already.

I built a composite canoe earlier this year. Instead of using an existing canoe for the shape, I built a male mold out of plywood and foam. I used epoxy resin, three layers of 5oz Kevlar, and one layer of 6oz S-glass. I am a complete amateur but here are some things I learned:

1. I used plastic wrap and packaging tape to keep the Kevlar from sticking to the mold. Every little wrinkle and edge translated into the inside of my hull. In retrospect, I should have used a mold release agent and wax instead.

2. The bottom of the hull was very flimsy during my initial test float. In retrospect, I should have made the bottom convex instead of flat, used additional layers of Kevlar on the bottom, or laminated in foam ribs.

3. I spent well over $500 in materials for a boat that doesn’t look that great or paddle that well. In retrospect, I should have used cheap fiberglass to learn with or just bought a used boat off craigslist.

The concept is simple. Wrap whatever shape you want, wet out the fabric, remove the copy once it dries. However, there is no replacement for experience. The guys that build tough, lightweight composite boats must spend years at a Tibetan Monastery mastering their patience and attention to detail. Having gone through this process, their prices suddenly seem very reasonable.

I remember reading an article about a man who used newspaper and Elmer’s glue to make a copy of a canoe. He varnished it to make it waterproof and used the canoe successfully on a trip. This may be a good way to hone your skills before you invest a ton of money or risk damaging your boat. All the best!

JC

What boat? As stated it may already have been done and you might be able to be one step ahead.

FWIW personally if I did what you are I'd send a few bucks to the designer of the boat (good karma). As material and time intensive it is to pull a mold off an existing boat, it's far more intensive to design one from scratch.

I have my sights set on an Outrage mostly because I have one and I like the way it paddles, but I am also interested in an Occoee or Viper as well.

For me it is more about learning something and having something made by me rather than having a boat that is worth what I paid for it.

Who was the original designer of the Outrage? (Tom Foster is one name I have come across).

I honestly had not thought of the idea of just asking if anyone had plugs or molds that I could work with. So, does anyone have a plug or mold of an 11'ish canoe that would be interested in either selling, renting, or loaning to someone who is looking to try their hand at their first homemade composite boat? I am in the DC area.

Thanks for the replies so far.

If I'm not mistaken Kaz will be building the composite Outrage soon. Jim Henry is the co-designer along with Tom Foster. I only mention this because you may had rather go with one of the other boats you mentioned since the Outrage will be available.

I will be building the Outrage and Outrage X. I also have the exclusive rights to those designs.
John Kazimierczyk

Two great options:

1) if you want something made by YOU, then design your own! You'll have the great feeling of paddling your own creation, learn even more, and it's likely to cost around the same material wise. Plus you'll get to tweak a boat able plug if you go that route which is amusing;).

2) Have Kaz make you the boat you want. likely cheaper than doing it yourself (really). I'd order one soon before he realizes he should charge more for what he does;)


In terms of "out of date" designs, it is always good to check around here / contact the designers directly. Boats have been cut up in parking lots with chain saws due to "copy infringement".... so GOOD for you in doing the right thing and asking here about the Outrage.

FWIW I believe the Viper is still in production as well, and i think to Ocoee too (though I can't recall who for the latter)

Novacraft may still be producing Ocoees. They were doing RX until this year and their website now promises it "soon" in Tuffstuff.

A (better) alternative is the Echoee being produced by Andy Convery of Echo Paddles. This is a glass Ocoee with an Innegra outer shell. Weighs about 25# without the airbags. This is the lightest, fastest boat I have ever paddled. I found it very stable (my previous boat was a Zephyr so I like stable boats.) You might want to get in touch with Andy if the Ocoee hull is of interest.

I am the proud owner of a Howler and paddling this boat is what spurred me to consider a composite project in the first place. Definitely not trying to infringe on anyone's design rights and this was not an issue that occurred to me when I first hatched this scheme. An honest thanks for the heads up.

The idea of just wrapping an existing canoe seemed to me a good way to learn how to work with the material and hopefully end up with something that would paddle. The thought of building a frame to wrap only to end up with a marginally paddleable boat seemed daunting to me.

Sir Adam mentioned the idea of a boatable plug? Is this something that gets constructed out of wood strips or is there a "designers foam" or similar product that is moldable that people work with?

I have also considered making my own fiberglass paddle blade to start as this would be a significantly smaller, and therefore less costly project, but have not found any blogs or forums discussing the process. Can anyone point me to a resource for making a paddle blade as a first project?

I have already inquired about ordering an Echoee and is on the top of my list as far as new boat acquisition goes.

keithmasill81 wrote:I am the proud owner of a Howler and paddling this boat is what spurred me to consider a composite project in the first place. Definitely not trying to infringe on anyone's design rights and this was not an issue that occurred to me when I first hatched this scheme. An honest thanks for the heads up.

For your own use, I think it's legal to make a one-off copy. But, it's a lot less work (and probably cheaper) to buy a boat from Kaz, especially when you consider the likelihood of screwing up. Ask me how I know...

I have also considered making my own fiberglass paddle blade to start as this would be a significantly smaller, and therefore less costly project, but have not found any blogs or forums discussing the process. Can anyone point me to a resource for making a paddle blade as a first project?

Been there, done that. I built paddles up until about 10 years ago. I sold about 70 of them, but it required 40 experimental prototypes first. (That was spread over flat blade, spoon blade, and unified spoon blade/integrated-shaft designs.) Building the original plugs was the easy part. It was getting the material configuration correct that was the hardest part.

Been there, done that. I built paddles up until about 10 years ago. I sold about 70 of them, but it required 40 experimental prototypes first. (That was spread over flat blade, spoon blade, and unified spoon blade/integrated-shaft designs.) Building the original plugs was the easy part. It was getting the material configuration correct that was the hardest part.[/quote]

Hey Bob,

Would be willing to chat with me for a few minutes if you have time. Would like to pick your brain a little about building the paddle plugs. Did you also make your own fiberglass shafts? You can try to PM me or maybe send me an email (keithmasill@gmail.com) if you feel so obliged.

Keith

Keith,
I sent you an e-mail.

I've offered Kaz all my tooling, but unless he speaks up now, it's available to anyone who can pick it up. It also includes all my patterns for cutting the material. I'll even throw in most of the aluminum and stainless tips I had made. I have carbon and aluminum shafts too, but they aren't free...

If you're going to pull off an existing boat I'd suggest you go for an Ocoee. Apparently it's open season on previously Bell owned designs with the company folded, so if someone from Bell finally does catch wind of things at least you'll be in good company.

skrag wrote:If you're going to pull off an existing boat I'd suggest you go for an Ocoee. Apparently it's open season on previously Bell owned designs with the company folded, so if someone from Bell finally does catch wind of things at least you'll be in good company.

This kind of advice is bad!

For a start there is an assumption that Bell were the IP owner and not building under license from Frankie or his family, but even if they were the owner, their bankruptcy doesn't void the IP, it is in fact a saleable asset which the receiver may have sold on.

I remember reading the news story about the composite Ocoee, I'm pretty sure they have permission or a license from whoever currently owns the IP, which may be Novacraft, or maybe Frankie's family, or it may be that the IP on the Ocoee has time expired by now?