Dagger Cascade = ??

Decked Canoes, Open Canoes, as long as they're canoes!

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RobertM
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Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by RobertM » Tue May 31, 2016 7:29 pm

I have a vague memory of hearing that some open boat shares a below waterline hull form with the Cascade C1,either as progenitor, sibling, or offspring.

I was wondering if anyone could confirm/deny and if it is so, what is the open boat?

Thanks
Robert

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Red Fish, Blue Fish"

Sir Adam
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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Sir Adam » Tue May 31, 2016 10:10 pm

I suspect you may be thinking of the HD1 open boat and Hahn decked boat.

But someone may know of another open boat / decked boat pairing.
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Roy
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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Roy » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:12 pm

The list of "built-up" open boats is long. Sometimes the wetted surface was tweaked, other times, not so much.

As Adam mentions, the Hahn was the base for the HD1, and, I believe, the Flashback.
Twister was from a BatMax
Fat Boy (aka Defiant) from a CudaMax
Sweet had a bolt-on mold extention which made a Hahn hull mold into a OC-1
I have made open canoes out of Max II and Stealth hulls

I have always thought the ME had C-2 roots. I had a built-up open boat made from a Hartung C-2 mold, and it looked a lot like an ME.

And, some Hubbard boats seemed to have Max C-1 cross-sections.

I have never heard of a Cascade OC1. I think the days of dudes in their backyards messing with canoe designs were in decline by the time the Cascade came along.

Bob Putnam made a skinny Cascade C-1; and, I have made two higher-volume [sic] Cascade C-1s. No open boats.

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RobertM
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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by RobertM » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:33 pm

I recall seeing that Millbrook listed a Cascade derived C1, on checking I see the Hornet, attributed to Bob Putnam.

My memory of an open topped Cascade is probably faulty, but with cloth and resin I suppose I could explore.

Getting off my own topic, I'm kind of curious about higher volume Cascades. If you don't mind me asking, what was the problem you were trying to solve, and how did it work out?

Thanks
Robert

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Red Fish, Blue Fish"

Roy
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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Roy » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:13 pm

RobertM wrote:
Getting off my own topic, I'm kind of curious about higher volume Cascades. If you don't mind me asking, what was the problem you were trying to solve, and how did it work out?

Thanks
I like to feel totally "in" the boat, not "on top of it." I am an old and inflexible (in many ways) guy, and run a 7 3/4" seat height. My extra-deep Cascade is 12" deep at both the fore and aft ends of the cockpit...I faired that extra depth into the normal hull profile in as short a distance as possible (i.e., most of the deck is OEM). It was, for a long time, my primary boat. It easily carries two weeks worth of gear for western multi-day trips.

The only down-side, as a daily driver, is that it is just so slow. Or, at least it feels slow.

For the record, I did ask Dagger for permission. They have always been super open to random dudes--i.e., me--building a glass boat, or two, from their designs. I've had Cascade, Ocoee, and Caption molds.

Roy

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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Sir Adam » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:13 am

Roy's made some interesting creations for sure:)

For a higher volume boat the River Elf Storm Chaser is pretty awesome. I'd much rather paddle it than a Cascade, but then I generally am biased against plastic (PE) boats anyway.
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Old School...........

Post by Blackhawk » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:13 am

Perception HD-1.jpg
Perception 5.JPG
A like new condition, rarely used Perception HD-1.
Found in an old, unused garage, where it had been stored for many, many years.

BOB

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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Roy » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:36 pm

Sir Adam wrote:
For a higher volume boat the River Elf Storm Chaser is pretty awesome. I'd much rather paddle it than a Cascade.

Adam,

What do you think is going on with the speed of the Cascade? The Storm Chaser numbers (8'5" x 27.75") would seem to make it slower than a Cascade. Is it just weight/stiffness? The SC is said to come in at 23#.

Bob Putman says his skinny Cascade is faster on a slalom course than his previous slalom boat...all he did, I believe, was chop two inches off the width and make it light. Same soft chines, same rocker.

Roy

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Re: Old School...........

Post by h2o_snow » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Perception HD-1.jpg
Perception 5.JPG
A like new condition, rarely used Perception HD-1.
Found in an old, unused garage, where it had been stored for many, many years.

BOB

Wow, memories. :)

I paddled one for a short time during my NOC stint in the 80's. Beat up and yellow? Then a ME, Sunburst 2, glass Flashback, a series of Capers augmented by a Cyclone for gates.

Will it be on the water?

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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Bob P » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:35 pm

Roy wrote: Bob Putman says his skinny Cascade is faster on a slalom course than his previous slalom boat...all he did, I believe, was chop two inches off the width and make it light. Same soft chines, same rocker.
Roy
I wouldn't claim that it is always faster than a slalom boat, but under certain circumstances it can be. It's main advantage is that it stays on top of the waves rather than punching through them.
Bob P

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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Roy » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:45 pm

Bob P wrote: I wouldn't claim that it is always faster than a slalom boat, but under certain circumstances it can be. It's main advantage is that it stays on top of the waves rather than punching through them.
Right...my paraphrase was a bit inexact. But, it still seems, you took a boat everyone thinks as super-slow, and made it quite-quick by simply narrowing it 2". Probably your wetted length increased a bit as a result of the narrowing?

R.

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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Bob P » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:17 pm

Roy wrote:...But, it still seems, you took a boat everyone thinks as super-slow, and made it quite-quick by simply narrowing it 2". Probably your wetted length increased a bit as a result of the narrowing?
R.
Good question. I suspect most of the difference comes from the narrower width combined with the lighter weight. I doubt whether the waterline has changed that much.
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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Sir Adam » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:03 pm

Re the storm chaser, I'm not sure it is faster, but it is FAR more pleasant to paddle and "feels" faster, likely du to being more responsive, and much, much lighter.


If you ever get down this way Roy you should check the "collection" out and paddle them back to back and see for yourself:) I still have that standard cut Acrobat too!
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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by Roy » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:18 pm

Sir Adam wrote:Re the storm chaser, I'm not sure it is faster, but it is FAR more pleasant to paddle and "feels" faster, likely du to being more responsive, and much, much lighter.


If you ever get down this way Roy you should check the "collection" out and paddle them back to back and see for yourself:) I still have that standard cut Acrobat too!

Thanks. I don't doubt that it feels faster, or that it even is faster. I just wonder if anything much is going to to make it faster other than the weight/stiffness. The SC numbers (length, width) just don't seem to add up to speed.

My glass Cascade is a river-runner lay-up...and, it is somewhat lighter than a plastic one. The boat still feels real slow.

I was probably 14 years old...the last time I could fit in an Acrobat. I do own the most-stupid-looking, most-ugly, squirt C-1 ever...which I do fit into.

R.

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Re: Dagger Cascade = ??

Post by C1NCR » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:22 pm

Which is?

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