C-Forum

Hello All,

My Ocoee is finally at the point of needing to be replaced. I am a kayaker but like to canoe a few times a year on some of the easier rivers in my area (Lowe rogue, umpquas, Klamath). I have only ever paddled the Ocoee and boy do I love that boat and how it turns, which I attribute to the rocker. Looking for something as close as possible, and looking for suggestions. I have been looking at the esquif detonator (due to the rocker) and silver birch rebel (due to the length and width). I wish someone just made the dam Ocoee! I think I’d like an abs boat, but I’m open. I am not well versed at all in what makes a canoe good, I just know I want something as close to the Ocoee as possible. Your advice would be most appreciated!

Erik

The Ocoee is a fantastic Frankie Hubbard design, albeit a bit dated now.

Erik, it might be helpful to expand on other reasons why you love the Ocoee.

If you want a newer style design and plastic hull in a solo open canoe that turns well, you are in luck and have several superb options all in plastic in the likes of the Esquif L'Edge, Blackfly Option (maybe Octane 85 or Condor) or Silver Birch Convert (maybe Agent or the Rebel that you mentioned). Plastic really opens up your paddling possibilities.

If you want to stay in the Ocoee hull length range, then the Blackfly Condor at 11'2" and the Silver Birch Rebel at 11'3" are worth considering. Again, both in plastic.

If you wish to say with ABS or Royalex then Esquif's T-Formex is the current material. The Zephyr (Twintex) or Zephyr 2.0 (T-Formex) at 11'3" are similar to the Ocoee in length and also in its Hubbard-like design. Maybe also the Spark, which is bit longer and a different hull but depending on your paddling style it has potential. I think there are now better OC hulls than the Detonator/Nitro.

If you wish to stay with the Ocoee, then try the used canoe market, Ocoee by Dagger, Bell, Nova Craft or even the composite Echoee by Andy Convery/Echo Paddles.

The Esquif L'edge and the Ocoee have very similar rocker profiles. Viewed from the side on dry ground the L'edge is a mini Ocoee
Millbrook 20/20 is 10'4" and spins on a dime while still being quick to accelerate
The Condor is a bit is a bit like a bulldozer compared to the Ocoee. Not always a bad thing but on easy rivers it's overkill
Empty Canoes still makes a dam fine Ocoee. They are in Missoula
If your running easier rivers maybe something with length and glide like a Viper? Paddling an 8.5' poly canoe on "easy" water could be grueling

Lots of great open boat designs out there, including newer ones folks are mentioning.

If you want Ocoee you might want to give Andy Convery a call at Echo Paddles... if he's still making his "Echoee" I suspect you'd like it; though not ABS it is very durable in my experience (I have one). I'm not familiar with Empty Canoes that was mentioned but probably worth calling them too as they are much closer.

Can't go wrong with a Viper. It's the longer and less edgy OC1 that Hubbard designed before the Ocoee. 11' and 12' versions.

MT Canoes in Missoula, I forgot about them!, http://www.mtcanoes.com/

I have owned or at least paddled nearly every boat mentioned. The Ocoee was my favorite Royalex boat. I think the Esquif Zephyr made in their new Twintex is the closest to the glide, turning, and rocker comparing it to the Ocoee. The Rebel and Condor do not have the rocker bow and stern that the Ocoee does. My 2 cents.

I wonder if you would not consider a composite Ocoee clone? I've had an Echoee (carbon and kevlar) boat for four years now and find it very responsive and durable, no to mention the 20 lbs lighter than the abs version. I don't know if Andy is still building them, but there is an outfit in in Montana (Empty Boats) that builds couple of versions in composite.
I used to have a Zephyr and find is much less responsive than the Echoee. I don't think you'd find it a good substitute. Similarly the Option and L'Edge. I own and Option and find it a nice creek boat, but its short length makes it slow for a down river boat. The L'Edge is a bit of barge for me -- another step away from the Echoee.

Time for a new/another shout out to my favorite boat builder, Empty Canoes (formally MT Canoes). I am a rather biased spokesperson but John Gallagher builds great canoes!! I am a long time fan of the Dagger Ocoee and Caption designs. I have owned 1 Caption and 2 Ocoees in plastic (both history) and, not so coincidently, own 1 Caption (SS) and 2 Ocoees (FH) in glass from Empty Canoes. I have tried many of the brands and models mentioned in this discussion and think they have their place. But if you already like the Ocoee design, going lighter and stiffer with that hull, is pretty amazing. Depending on how light the layup, you get the feeling you are just moving YOU across the water, not you AND a canoe. I treated my plastic versions more carefully over a longer time span and still managed to put a 'star' crack in the 1 Ocoee on a relatively minor hit.
The SS is my newest boat so still baby it a bit but the 2 FH's have been put through the wringer. This a an often repeated story but illustrates the durability well. I took my lighter (RAC) layup FH to a slalom race in Washington State on my way to teach a SRT class. A local river, the Cispus, had a class III+ section I'd paddled before but thought the forest access road was closed. It was open... I did not bring a pump or big float bags, just little end bags. The boat only weighs 19.5 pounds without outfitting, the lightest one he has built so far. My kayaking co-instructor, really wanted to go so I decided to really paddle with a technical mindset and carry around the harder sections. That didn't exactly work out and I beat the crap out of that boat! I hit so many rocks that sounded bad but on some of the stops to bail or carry, I couldn't find anything! Then there would be another hit and I'd think, oh, that definitely is damage! Still nothing. I even broached and she started to fill/fold but I wiggled off in time. It was impressive! My other FH is 31 pounds without outfitting and would have been the preferred boat for that trip. After seeing what the lighter one could take, I know they both can take a licking and keep on ticking.
Having owned a Defiant from Millbrook, any of Kaz's boats would be equally durable. I have tried most of his designs at some point and like his shorter boats also but it's hard to shake my love of the Ocoee. Good luck with your decision.

Thank you for all of your replies. I had looked at the MT FH a couple of years ago but then went back and it looked they were out of business. I'll look into that option. We don't have ready access to OC-1s out here (used market is near non-existent) and so it's a bit of gamble, so I'm trying to do my homework so I don't end up disappointed. Thanks all.

Erik

So, a little late, but if you're still looking, here are some that others didn't mention.

NorthStar Canoes makes a composite Ocoee.

Clipper Canoes have the Viper 11 and 12 molds. You'll have to call them to make the order, but they're very easy to work with and will ship it to you. I also really like their factory outfitting...they happened to have a guy at the factory who is 6'5" just like me, so they outfitted it for him and it fit me perfectly.

I bought a Viper 12 from Clipper in 2018 and I've been extremely happy with it. If you're paddling easier stuff like the Klamath, (or any run where you're not bashing rocks all the time) which I've marked a few thousand hours on, the Vipers might be a good way to go. Switching from Royalex to composite is really something else. I'm eventually going to buy a Condor to replace my own battered and aging royalex solos, but anytime I'm running some class III or better where I know I've got enough water that I'll only smash a rock if I make a mistake, I don't even think about taking anything but my composite Viper. You feel every pound you've shed by going glass.
While the Vipers won't carve turns quite as fast as an Ocoee, but they tend to carry speed better through turns, and they're a much nicer cruiser than an Ocoee, which is a consideration if you're running easier water with long pools between rapids. If you're under 215, go with the 11, if you're over 215, the 12.

Good Luck