C-Forum

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:57 pm**

http://www.vimeo.com/19750498

Please ignore the helmet. The University requires you to wear helmets in a bot in the pool, so I had to borrow one of theirs.

I have some on-side and off-side rolls, and then a few back-deck rolls. As I was videoing, I felt like I had my shaft hand pushed-down too far at the end of the rolls, but that may not be visible from the bow-cam perspective. I'm not sure exactly how I would change that though. Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Shep

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:51 pm**

Hi Shep,

I've got some suggestions but I would like to see your roll shot from the pool side/bank first.

Pop some footage up if you've got it.

Kelvin.

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:14 pm**

Got nothin' else. This was all self-done. I do work for the outdoor center now, so I can get them to film at a later pool session.

Thanks,
Shep

Posted: **Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:42 pm**

This is very cool, since I have a Taureau, too, and find it very hard to roll. Seems like a skirt makes it harder; I do OK without it. I'll watch this video ten times and then off to pool rolling tonight. BTW, it's 15 degrees around here.

Posted: **Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:05 pm**

Shep, I'd suggest not fiddling with your right hand underwater as much. Practice coming up with whatever you went over with (within reason). Turbulent water may strip the paddle out of your hand if you do that for real and you were pretty consistent in doing it. Practice makes permanent. You're back decks were nice but a bit more hipsnap and a little earlier initiation of the hip snap will keep you from having to drag that sweep so far forward or failing to stay up. I'd also suggest you try to smooth out your whole roll sequence so it melds together into one continious looking motion. But hey, what do I know.

Posted: **Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:45 pm**

Smurfwarrior wrote:Shep, I'd suggest not fiddling with your right hand underwater as much.

I hadn't even thought about it until you pointed it out... sure enough, every time I go over I adjust my right hand. I don't know if that is happening in actual paddling, or only in the pool sessions. Next time, I think I will take a couple of strokes to settle my hand in a "real" paddling position and flip over before I come to a stop.

Smurfwarrior wrote:You're back decks were nice but a bit more hipsnap and a little earlier initiation of the hip snap will keep you from having to drag that sweep so far forward or failing to stay up. I'd also suggest you try to smooth out your whole roll sequence so it melds together into one continious looking motion. But hey, what do I know.

I suspect that fine-tuning the hip-snap will improve all of my rolls... Hard to figure it out because the OC'ers around here with rolls tend to live far enough apart to go to different roll sessions.

Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming!
Shep

Posted: **Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:56 pm**

I second the hip flick. Because its weak, it looks like you're really forcing the boat to come that extra little bit at the end with the paddle. There should be very little pressure on the paddle in the last part of the roll. In turbulent water that much pressure will put you back down a lot of the time. But it's not bad:) the back deck roll looks smooth.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:28 am**

I guess I'm struggling to figure out how to make my hip snap happen more aggressively. Should it feel like I am doing my roll, but then really accelerate the roll at a certain point ? Looking at the video, I can see that my body is floating up to help the boat start the roll before I ever push down on the paddle... Maybe it should feel like I am trying to "roll the boat under my hips" if that makes any sense?

Thanks,
Shep

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:05 am**

Here are some things I wrote then cut and paste from other threads

Not sure if this will help, but I break the roll into three steps and concentrate on each.. I "reach for surface" ..."hipsnap boat" ... "swing head forward over bow".... I run that through my head when I roll and the faster you can get those steps done the faster your roll... helped me.

I always overdo the 'reach for surface' as it prevents the boat from handing up. Another tip comes from my gunfighting days...
"Slow is smooth and Smooth is Fast" Think about that... the smoother you are the faster you are but you can't be fast without being smooth.
_________________

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:59 am**

One thing I found that took my roll from ok to bomber was ditch the PFD(in the pool of course). The pfd is a crutch for learning the proper roll. Taking it off will force you to have proper technique. You don't float so it forces you to really think about your set up and follow through. That really helped me.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:37 am**

I have exactly the opposite experience when rolling without pfd.

I had a 99% pool roll without pfd, and once I put on a drytop and pfd, I hardly managed to roll 10% something... .
Ok, due to crappy technique, but the again.

I don't think there is a "golden" way to learn how to roll.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:00 am**

Hi Shep,

Ok, a few things for you to consider. Let's look at your 'set' position first, then I am going to add a quote form some feedback I gave Tommy on his roll as I think it is important and could help!

In your set position your shoulders face the bottom of the pool, in this position when you reach for the surface you flex your spine aggressively in two directions. By doing this you lose reach and immobilise your hips, two elements that are important to the roll. This is why the boat stalls on it's side, when this happens to a boat that shouldn't stall it is a sign that you are floating up to the surface rather that pulling yourself to the surface with your offside knee/thigh as explained in the quote below.
Experiment with twisting the set position towards the bow, pull the boat over onto the back of your offside shoulder. Looking down the length of the boat may help this. Keep you T-grip hand closer to your body and reach for the surface with your shaft hand just above your line of vision if looking down the length of the boat.

Hey Tommy,

If that paddle position works for you cool! It is a similar paddle position to how I back deck roll.

I am going to give you a few things to think about.

You roll the boat using the forward sculling action, there is little evidence of a hip flick. If you combined your forward skull with an understanding of the hip flick your roll would be almost indestructible! I am going to explain the hip flick first, then look at things for you to experiment with.

I am going to be over prescriptive here so please bear in mind the purpose is to give you things to consider, not to say 'only do it like this'

Experiment with this with your hands on the pool side.

The optimum body position as viewed from above to drive the boat upright is around 90 degrees.

Let's look at what the legs do first, or rather the part of the legs that are under the bulkhead/straps etc. Ok, we roll the boat with both our legs BUT we only use one at once. Here's how it works: when we are in the 'set' position our offside leg pulls on our bulkhead/straps to bring our torso towards the surface. There should be no 'active' pressure on our onside knee. (There will be some pressure as we are hanging upside down!) We then relax the offside leg and drive the boat upright with our onside leg. Almost a spring effect. The boat is driven as far as possible with the head still down. It is useful to give the moment the pressure changes from leg to leg a 'word' that you or your student can say, i.e 'GNARR!' This can then be used as a timing trigger when working on the roll. The head and torso UP at the start of the hip flick is as important as head and torso DOWN at the end of the hip flick.

We have now driven the boat as far as we can with the head still down.

This is the point where you usually hear 'keep your head down!' What we should be saying is 'now we are going to look at how to bring the head up'
Sit on your sofa. Now lay your body down towards your paddling side keeping your feet on the ground, relax. You've fallen asleep, dreaming of the Gnarr... a voice stirs you... 'Tommy..... TOMMY!' You grunt something as you sit up, which part of your body do you lift first? For most people it's their head. Sitting up this way has become intuitive, top vertebra first, followed by the next, followed by the next and so on. We need to learn how to sit up from the bottom vertebra first, followed by the next, followed by the next and so on. A sort of whip effect!

A few observations on your roll:

Pause the video to when you have sculled the paddle to 90 degrees, with the T grip a bit lower and the boat pulled a bit more on top of you that would be a great position to hip flick from. That would be a different roll for you.

You right the boat slowly throughout the roll, doing this you loose that 'spring' effect that holding the boat 'capsized' with the offside leg gives you. More weight than necessary is then committed to the blade. The boat is effectively pushing you down throughout the roll.

You take the paddle a long way back and get support from the sculling action. Again this commits more weigh that necessary to the blade as you are holding your body close to the surface with the blade, rather than with your offside leg. This is really visible at the moment you start to scull forwards the first thing that happens is your head, torso and paddle dive deeper. I can also see that you have lost tension in your offside leg as the boat is already half way up when you start your scull forwards.

A few things to experiment with:

When you scull back hold the boat 'capsized' with your offside leg, keep this pressure as you start to scull forwards. This way when you scull forwards your head, torso and paddle will be rising towards the surface. With this in mind let's look at your head: it starts near the surface, then dives down, then it comes up. Viewed from the side at water level it would draw a 'smile' shape. A roll with a good hip flick will generally make an 'rainbow' shape. As you start to scull forwards pressure on your offside leg lifts you up, towards the surface as you switch pressure to your onside leg your head will generally drop a bit as you drive the boat upright. If we think of the highest part of the rainbow, driving with the onside leg will start before the top to get maximum support from the blade. This is where your timing trigger word (GNARR!) is useful for experimenting. Once we have driven the boat as far as we can, sit up like a whip!

Feel free to comment on anything that I have suggested. Also for those experimenting with with new ideas and concepts, it is likely that they will feel more awkward and 'harder' than what you already know. They need to be given time and practised. And we all know what practise makes.... PERMANENT! Only perfect practise makes perfect.

Have fun developing your not only bomb proof but indestructible roll!

Kelvin.

Happy rolling,

Kelvin.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:22 pm**

Kelvin wrote:In your set position your shoulders face the bottom of the pool, in this position when you reach for the surface you flex your spine aggressively in two directions. By doing this you lose reach and immobilise your hips, two elements that are important to the roll. This is why the boat stalls on it's side, when this happens to a boat that shouldn't stall it is a sign that you are floating up to the surface rather that pulling yourself to the surface with your offside knee/thigh as explained in the quote below.
Experiment with twisting the set position towards the bow, pull the boat over onto the back of your offside shoulder. Looking down the length of the boat may help this. Keep you T-grip hand closer to your body and reach for the surface with your shaft hand just above your line of vision if looking down the length of the boat.

Kelvin.

If I understand correctly, I think you may be telling me to position my body a different way than other things I have seen (not disagreeing, just want to make sure I understand.)

When I am positioning my body to start the C-to-C, I try to have my chest and face pointing straight down, so that I am on top of the blade and protecting my shoulders. In order to maximize the leverage on the boat, I try to make sure I am perpendicular to the keel line.

The part about "Pull the boat over onto the back of your offside shoulder" sounds like I shouldn't be perpendicular to the keel line. Am I misunderstanding that? I feel like when I fail to roll up it is usually because I am NOT perpendicular to the keel line. That was my biggest problem when I started working on the back-deck roll. I would sweep around under the stern, and when I started the C-to-C, I wasn't perpendicular or I was still sweeping towards the bow so I lost my leverage.

As far as the notion of the Hip-snap, I think I understand what your are pointing me towards... Pulling myself towards my off-side knee while upside down should get my head and shoulders to the surface more quickly, and then quickly reverse the knee pressures (go from pulling up on my offside (left) knee to pushing down, and vice-versa for the onside(right) knee) to flip the boat over.

Previously, I have been thinking about my body from the hips down being rigidly fixed in position to maintain strong contact with the boat, and using the flexibility in my trunk to position my shoulders and head where I want them to be for the roll.

Posted: **Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:04 am**

Something to consider. Center concentration on your hips.

Watch the very first roll and the very last roll while keeping an eye on your waistband. Observe the timing of the hips twist.

On the first very strong roll the hips are leading and active all the way through the roll. On the final roll, which you came very close to missing, notice how much the hips lag behind. The hips start to move after the shoulders move.

Now watch the one of the misses. All shoulder - little hip twisting.

Notice too that when the hips lag behind is when your T-Grip forearm lands on the deck of the boat at an inconvenient time. Take the forearm slam as a sign of bad hip timing.

By concentrating on swinging the hip bones around all the on-side/off-side knee pushing and pulling rightly discussed elsewhere will mostly happen automatically.

Your setup looks fine. From that position rotate the hips and the rest of the torso will follow. I'm not suggesting a change of form. Just a shift of focus.

Dave

Posted: **Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:26 am**

Hi Shep,

Although there is often no right or wrong way to roll some ways certainly work better than others.

Your roll looks very much like Paul Masons in 'Thrill of the Paddle' This roll works for some but for most it is very difficult to stretch for the surface with the shoulders facing the bottom, for me this position is a contradiction: it keeps the shoulders safe but hinders flexibility, putting pressure on the arms (and shoulder!)

Turning your torso a touch towards the bow will start to free up the lower body and aid reaching for the surface. Holding the body in this 'coiled up spring' position is one of the keys to a good hip snap.

Drive the boat upright through the points of connectivity, bulkhead/thigh straps rather than the hips.

I hope this gives you some things to experiment with in the pool. Some of the things may work for you, others not. Just remember new things will feel different so make sure you give them enough time to make a decision whether they work for you.

Have fun,

Kelvin.

C-Forum

Yet another roll-critique video (2nd video added)

Yet another roll-critique video (2nd video added)

Rolling