Can someone explain in layman's language why more skill is needed for paddling harder chined boats? [Viper, Ocoee]
Especially how does hard edge/soft edge affect eddy turns and peel outs?
Thanks in advance
Edges, Chines, and swims
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To say that one needs more skill to paddle a hard edged boat isn't necessarily true, you just need to be comfortable with that type of hull. So, soft edge vs. hard edge,or round vs. 90 degree edge-- a round edge isn't actually much of an 'edge' at all there is no real angle to it, its round like a log, whereas a hard edge has a distinct angle, like a ski. What this means is that a round edged boat will be less likely to have the current 'grab' that edge because it is essentially a smooth edge all the way to the gunwale. The hard edged boat has a distinct angle where the hull of the boat transitions to the side of the boat. Soft edged boats usually have a round bottom vs the hard edge boats that usually have a flat bottom, the transition from the flat bottom to a flat side is what creates a 'hard' edge. A hard edge boat can have more of a tendancy for the current to grab that edge (usually when you lean the wrong direction). This is why hard edged boats 'need more skill' to paddle, catching an edge and flipping is easier in a hard edged boat, especially when you are nervous and stiff or don't have good control of your leaning.
As far as eddy turns, the hard edge boat will grab the 'new' current of the eddy better and carve because of the edge (when the boat is leaned in the proper direction), again much like a ski. Softer edge boats, because of a lack of edge, don't 'grab' the eddy current as well and therefore are not as snappy. However if you never lean the boat when eddy turning an edge won't do anything as you will just 'slide' into the eddy as opposed to 'carving' into the eddy. This all applies to peel outs as well, as they are just the same as eddy turns.
Hopefully I didn't blabber too much and some of it makes sense. I'm sure others will chime in as well.
Good Luck
B
As far as eddy turns, the hard edge boat will grab the 'new' current of the eddy better and carve because of the edge (when the boat is leaned in the proper direction), again much like a ski. Softer edge boats, because of a lack of edge, don't 'grab' the eddy current as well and therefore are not as snappy. However if you never lean the boat when eddy turning an edge won't do anything as you will just 'slide' into the eddy as opposed to 'carving' into the eddy. This all applies to peel outs as well, as they are just the same as eddy turns.
Hopefully I didn't blabber too much and some of it makes sense. I'm sure others will chime in as well.
Good Luck
B
On a softer chined boat, generally one leans towards the inside of the turn having the curvature of the boat help to arc it in the direction you want to go. You can do that with a boat with a harder chine, but to really make the turn snappy, you actually lean the boat slightly (temporarily anyway) to the outside edge to make it grab the water hard. Your body is still leaning into the turn, but you are weighting the outside edge a bit.
You tend to "trip" on the edges sometimes as you make those hard turns into an eddy if you don't watch it. Obviously, if you are not prepared and ready for that sharp grab of the boat when you hit that edge, momentum will carry your body over.
In peelouts and surfing, a lot depends on how far the edges go along the bottom of the boat. Usually, the abruptness of the edges diminishes towards the end of the boat as it rounds out. Amounts of rocker also play a role in this, but it's part of the design. The further the edge comes to the ends of the boat, the more "grabby" the front or rear of the boat will be. This can be abrupt, especially with a slow speed cross of the eddy line into fast moving current...the front will grab and you better be ready. An Ocoee's edge runs further to the ends than a Viper does.
You can negate the edge to a degree by leaning into your turns and not presenting your edge to the current line. That said, the edge is always nearby and an unintended rocking of the boat to said edge engages that edge..ready or not.
On my Ocoee, I really control the boat as much with the lean of the boat as i do with the paddle. If, for example, there is an eddyline on the right..if I want to avoid that eddy, I can lean the right edge down and the boat will bounce off the line and not turn (can make it with the paddle, but still); if I lean and engage the left edge and even barely bump that line, I am turning in. On ferries and surfing, even more use of the edge.
Pretend you are 7 years old again, get on the highway, roll down your window and stick your arm out there. First, have your hand in a fist...round bottom, no real edge. Tilt it up or down and you may have some change. Now, open your hand so it's flat and turn it up or down. Rudimentary and exagerated, but you'll get the idea.
You tend to "trip" on the edges sometimes as you make those hard turns into an eddy if you don't watch it. Obviously, if you are not prepared and ready for that sharp grab of the boat when you hit that edge, momentum will carry your body over.
In peelouts and surfing, a lot depends on how far the edges go along the bottom of the boat. Usually, the abruptness of the edges diminishes towards the end of the boat as it rounds out. Amounts of rocker also play a role in this, but it's part of the design. The further the edge comes to the ends of the boat, the more "grabby" the front or rear of the boat will be. This can be abrupt, especially with a slow speed cross of the eddy line into fast moving current...the front will grab and you better be ready. An Ocoee's edge runs further to the ends than a Viper does.
You can negate the edge to a degree by leaning into your turns and not presenting your edge to the current line. That said, the edge is always nearby and an unintended rocking of the boat to said edge engages that edge..ready or not.
On my Ocoee, I really control the boat as much with the lean of the boat as i do with the paddle. If, for example, there is an eddyline on the right..if I want to avoid that eddy, I can lean the right edge down and the boat will bounce off the line and not turn (can make it with the paddle, but still); if I lean and engage the left edge and even barely bump that line, I am turning in. On ferries and surfing, even more use of the edge.
Pretend you are 7 years old again, get on the highway, roll down your window and stick your arm out there. First, have your hand in a fist...round bottom, no real edge. Tilt it up or down and you may have some change. Now, open your hand so it's flat and turn it up or down. Rudimentary and exagerated, but you'll get the idea.
... that window illustration, great example!
to add a bit, and not to take away...everything so far has been right on, as far as I can tell... although I take a little issue with the concept that it's harder, for to me softer is harder (as I have to paddle more - to get me where i'm going)
Edges really shine when utilized on the offside. Since we only have one paddle for both sides, and really don't want to stay off-side all the time, so that opposite edge can be your friend. Utilizing some balance you can control and ride the offside edge from your onside. With a ever so slight lean, a constant high brace and/or basic forward stroke... you can ride the edge sort of like a keel. Sometimes the lean is just a quarter of an inch, and no one else will even know. They'll just go, how did you do that! ((please remember 4high-brace: getting top hand lower is best - nearer to head level for safety, and also square the shoulders a bit - also for safety)) With more rounded hull, the leans do not have as much effect, and hence the paddle has to do more work. Using one's edges requires less power, as your gaining some from gravity (ie. balance) helping out. Instead of the canoe instantly starting to turn downstream, or having to apply some sort of power stroke to compensate and maintain current (sic- if you will) direction... you can hold to the course. Of course you'll trip over a edge, from time to time. The key here is anticipation. If always trying to react to a situation, you're basically out of control and playing catch up. Same with edges, you have to use them. Just look ahead to where the boats heading, while remembering only the top inch or two of water is really affecting the hull. So what you see, is what you get - usually. If the current picks up, lean more hard, when current lessen up - you lessen up . Not really always changing amount of lean, but the amount of pressure on the lean. The thing is - if you lean and do nothing, you'll accelerate what's going on. This is 'one' reason why keels are not desired on whitewater boats. It's only when driving (balancing) on the keel (edge) that it'll work for you... otherwise you may end up in the drink.
may have digressed too much...
as original question was concerning turns and peel outs... where i find it much easier to ride the upstreme-edge out when peeling out, and then let off and convert-or-fall into a downstream turn... in this way you can 'peel out' as far as desired (both on and off sides)... and when used with a 's-turn' can go anywhere... with a rounded bottom, this is not nearly as effective
...just my 2cents, and how I attack (not respond) to things, however planning ahead is another topic... as is using an upstream (on-n-off-side's) edge for ferrying (nothing better)
to add a bit, and not to take away...everything so far has been right on, as far as I can tell... although I take a little issue with the concept that it's harder, for to me softer is harder (as I have to paddle more - to get me where i'm going)
Edges really shine when utilized on the offside. Since we only have one paddle for both sides, and really don't want to stay off-side all the time, so that opposite edge can be your friend. Utilizing some balance you can control and ride the offside edge from your onside. With a ever so slight lean, a constant high brace and/or basic forward stroke... you can ride the edge sort of like a keel. Sometimes the lean is just a quarter of an inch, and no one else will even know. They'll just go, how did you do that! ((please remember 4high-brace: getting top hand lower is best - nearer to head level for safety, and also square the shoulders a bit - also for safety)) With more rounded hull, the leans do not have as much effect, and hence the paddle has to do more work. Using one's edges requires less power, as your gaining some from gravity (ie. balance) helping out. Instead of the canoe instantly starting to turn downstream, or having to apply some sort of power stroke to compensate and maintain current (sic- if you will) direction... you can hold to the course. Of course you'll trip over a edge, from time to time. The key here is anticipation. If always trying to react to a situation, you're basically out of control and playing catch up. Same with edges, you have to use them. Just look ahead to where the boats heading, while remembering only the top inch or two of water is really affecting the hull. So what you see, is what you get - usually. If the current picks up, lean more hard, when current lessen up - you lessen up . Not really always changing amount of lean, but the amount of pressure on the lean. The thing is - if you lean and do nothing, you'll accelerate what's going on. This is 'one' reason why keels are not desired on whitewater boats. It's only when driving (balancing) on the keel (edge) that it'll work for you... otherwise you may end up in the drink.
may have digressed too much...
as original question was concerning turns and peel outs... where i find it much easier to ride the upstreme-edge out when peeling out, and then let off and convert-or-fall into a downstream turn... in this way you can 'peel out' as far as desired (both on and off sides)... and when used with a 's-turn' can go anywhere... with a rounded bottom, this is not nearly as effective
...just my 2cents, and how I attack (not respond) to things, however planning ahead is another topic... as is using an upstream (on-n-off-side's) edge for ferrying (nothing better)
It seems to me that harder chined boats have less secondary stability, as in once you lean the boat just past "on edge" it is very difficult to recover. At least from my experiences I have found this to be a bit frustrating. But both types of boats have their advantages.
-Jollyman
-Jollyman
Boats:
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"Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly ever acquire the skill to do difficult things easily"
-Mohawk Probe 11 OC1
-Pyranha i3 221 K1
"Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly ever acquire the skill to do difficult things easily"
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agrestal
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I don't think it necessarily takes more skill to paddle a boat with more edge. I went from kayaking into a Viper 12 and found it much easier (or less frustrating or both) to paddle than canoes with less edge. It's much easier to carve turns which helps with eddies, etc or even to paddle on edge & use it like a keel at times. If you have decent balance and can anticipate how the water will act on your edges, they will only help you do what you want to do. 
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jscottl67 wrote:
On my Ocoee, I really control the boat as much with the lean of the boat as i do with the paddle. If, for example, there is an eddyline on the right..if I want to avoid that eddy, I can lean the right edge down and the boat will bounce off the line and not turn (can make it with the paddle, but still); if I lean and engage the left edge and even barely bump that line, I am turning in. On ferries and surfing, even more use of the edge.
Why didnt I read this before?
As a novice I was brainwashed with the speed, angle, lean in on your turn, show your butt to the current, and Ive been wondering why (after switching to boats that are supposed to be easier to turn) I m cruising past eddie lines that used to be so easy to snap into in a boat almost twice as long??
Ive got something to work on this weekend.
Proud Yankee
There is a tradeoff between initial versus secondary stability. A flat bottom has more initial than secondary when compared to one that's rounded.
The greater initial stability with a sharper chine matches the control you get by engaging the edge with less lean.
The greater initial stability with a sharper chine matches the control you get by engaging the edge with less lean.
Jollyman wrote:It seems to me that harder chined boats have less secondary stability, as in once you lean the boat just past "on edge" it is very difficult to recover. At least from my experiences I have found this to be a bit frustrating. But both types of boats have their advantages.