since the composite Millbrook Rival is getting some press...
...does anyone own one and care to throw an opinion down? How about an experienced apples to apples comparison between the Royalex and the Composite Rival? How has the wear and tear worked out, any repairs?
I'm biased, I paddle both royalex and composite in a hull and find there can be quite a positive difference to composite. I tried to talk a friend into a composite Millbrook Rival but it was her money and she spent it elsewhere. The boat she bought was totally unsuitable and sits in her basement and instead she bought another royalex Rival.
Wasn't the first time someone ignored my opinion, won't be the last, but I would like to hear an owners review.
Thanks
(where ever the colour scheme came from it looks great)
Millbrook Rival
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Millbrook Rival
Paddling is easy, organizing shuttles is hard.
Not misplacing all your crap in somebody else's car seems to be even harder
Not misplacing all your crap in somebody else's car seems to be even harder
Re: Millbrook Rival
Not an owner, but Chris the judge and legislator in MO paddles Rivals. He has both Royalex and composite. He especially likes the way Rivals roll. He uses the Royalex version when he anticipates being unable to avoid frequent ledge thumping and rockiness.
My experience with my Millbrook Big Boy (withdrawn from production but similar to the Defiant) is that if damage occurs, it is usually confined to compression cracking of the S-glass exterior. A Defiant that I examined had some damage to the inside of the chines due to getting thumped hard in the center underside. Kevlar doesn't do as well at holding up to compression. But this would not apply to a Rival, because it is rather round, without chines.
My experience with my Millbrook Big Boy (withdrawn from production but similar to the Defiant) is that if damage occurs, it is usually confined to compression cracking of the S-glass exterior. A Defiant that I examined had some damage to the inside of the chines due to getting thumped hard in the center underside. Kevlar doesn't do as well at holding up to compression. But this would not apply to a Rival, because it is rather round, without chines.
Re: Millbrook Rival
Yeah, ChrisKelly would be the one to ask. I know he really likes the Rival a lot. I understand my friend Bruce M (Bruce on this forum) paddled a Millbrook Rival last year and didn't much care for it, so you might query him as well.
Some people seem to have found the asymmetrical rocker of the Rival to be undesirable.
Some people seem to have found the asymmetrical rocker of the Rival to be undesirable.
Re: Millbrook Rival
But asymmetrical rocker is ww open canoes is so common. Are some concerned about an asymmetrical canoe not backing or backferrying predictably? I don't find that a problem at all. My cars don't behave in reverse the way they do going forward, and I just learn to deal with it.
I think ChrisK may be mainly a river runner and not so much a playboater, or imitation slalom paddler like me. The Rival should be unusually well suitable for wilderness cruising and whitewater, sort of in the same class as the composite Shaman.
I think ChrisK may be mainly a river runner and not so much a playboater, or imitation slalom paddler like me. The Rival should be unusually well suitable for wilderness cruising and whitewater, sort of in the same class as the composite Shaman.
Just a war story...
.. a friend pinned his royalex Rival in a notch and seriously wrapped it, gave it a gunnel to gunnel Grin about 2 feet from the bow. It was jumped on and "field moulded" back into good enough shape to get down the river. A high five for royalex but the boat was considered trashed.
It was a challenge though so with nothing to lose that hadn't already been lost we put it in my shop, stripped all the rigging out, and "reversed it", rigging it to paddle stern first.
Now it is not pretty but the wrap seam is at the back end and the bow is unblemished and the hull appears to be straight. The asymmetrical rocker should be ... fun. He might get another 3 years out of it... or at least one more wrap.
Water has been low here so I haven't had to a chance paddle it but ti should be interesting; hopefully not better, not worse, just different.
Just a war story.
It was a challenge though so with nothing to lose that hadn't already been lost we put it in my shop, stripped all the rigging out, and "reversed it", rigging it to paddle stern first.
Now it is not pretty but the wrap seam is at the back end and the bow is unblemished and the hull appears to be straight. The asymmetrical rocker should be ... fun. He might get another 3 years out of it... or at least one more wrap.
Water has been low here so I haven't had to a chance paddle it but ti should be interesting; hopefully not better, not worse, just different.
Just a war story.
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Last edited by Einar on Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paddling is easy, organizing shuttles is hard.
Not misplacing all your crap in somebody else's car seems to be even harder
Not misplacing all your crap in somebody else's car seems to be even harder
Re: Millbrook Rival
It can be interesting to paddle an asymmetrical canoe forwards, and backwards. My MR Synergy is quite asymmetrical, swedeform. When I first paddled it, before serious outfitting, I tried paddling it backwards, in the "fishform" direction, similar to the fishform Millbrook Ignitor though less markedly so. The "front" end felt loose and full, and I could pull it one way or another by altering the direction of my forward stroke, without having to lean back to release the bow.
In the intended swedeform orientation, it was faster, but to change direction, it was necessary to lean back to release the bow.
All this may give some insight into why Kaz likes to race fishform boats. He keeps hammering and guiding the boat at the bow, while the stern sort of skegs along.
In the intended swedeform orientation, it was faster, but to change direction, it was necessary to lean back to release the bow.
All this may give some insight into why Kaz likes to race fishform boats. He keeps hammering and guiding the boat at the bow, while the stern sort of skegs along.
Re: Millbrook Rival
The Rival is not only asymmetrical with regard to its rocker, but also its hull cross sectional shape. It is generally a soft-chine boat, but if you look at the hull carefully you will find that the front portion of the hull has a smooth, shallow arch cross section, but the stern transitions to something more like a shallow V. The design intent apparently was to make the boat track better.
I have not paddled the Rival enough for my opinion to matter much but for what it is worth, I did paddle one for an hour or so at a local dam breach that creates some eddies and play waves. The boat that I paddled had been owned by a well-known ACA instructor who is considerably taller than I am, and has much longer legs, so it is likely that the pedestal was a bit farther aft than ideal for me. For my part, I found the Rival pretty lively, and it moved upstream in current well on attainments and upstream ferries, but the less-rockered and more V shaped stern section felt a bit sticky to me on eddy turns. I have heard that the Rival, like many asymmetrical boats, is quite trim-sensitive.
I certainly don't think that asymmetrical boats are bad. I also paddle a composite Shaman which is more asymmetrical than the Rival. But in the case of the Shaman, the stern is more rockered than the bow, and the bow has more edge than the stern, almost opposite to the layout of the Rival. I think it probably requires some time in the boat, and possibly some tweaking of the trim to get the most out of an asymmetrical hull.
I know or have known quite a few people who really liked the Rival. But I have also known a few very good paddlers with a lot of experience in many different boats who cared for it not at all. But I suspect the same can be said of any design.
I have not paddled the Rival enough for my opinion to matter much but for what it is worth, I did paddle one for an hour or so at a local dam breach that creates some eddies and play waves. The boat that I paddled had been owned by a well-known ACA instructor who is considerably taller than I am, and has much longer legs, so it is likely that the pedestal was a bit farther aft than ideal for me. For my part, I found the Rival pretty lively, and it moved upstream in current well on attainments and upstream ferries, but the less-rockered and more V shaped stern section felt a bit sticky to me on eddy turns. I have heard that the Rival, like many asymmetrical boats, is quite trim-sensitive.
I certainly don't think that asymmetrical boats are bad. I also paddle a composite Shaman which is more asymmetrical than the Rival. But in the case of the Shaman, the stern is more rockered than the bow, and the bow has more edge than the stern, almost opposite to the layout of the Rival. I think it probably requires some time in the boat, and possibly some tweaking of the trim to get the most out of an asymmetrical hull.
I know or have known quite a few people who really liked the Rival. But I have also known a few very good paddlers with a lot of experience in many different boats who cared for it not at all. But I suspect the same can be said of any design.
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Paddle Power
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Re: Millbrook Rival
I have not paddled a composite Rival but I found it a fast boat. A composite layup would be even faster!
Symmetrical boats can of course be paddled in either direction with the same performance. This is sometime of help if you reoutfit a used canoe and wish to reverse the bow and stern or have some solo-tandem outfitting that requires opposite directions (i.e. solo one direction and tandem the opposite direction).
pblanc mentioned that the Rival and Shaman have the opposite hull configuration, which makes me wonder if someone got the bow and stern reversed at point in the process? I know of a building that got build 180 degrees spun around on the north-south axis. Anyhow, if paddler likes his or her ride and switches from a Rival to a Shaman or the other way around, he or she might prefer to reverse the outfitting direction to achieve a more familiar hull reaction or performance.
Symmetrical boats can of course be paddled in either direction with the same performance. This is sometime of help if you reoutfit a used canoe and wish to reverse the bow and stern or have some solo-tandem outfitting that requires opposite directions (i.e. solo one direction and tandem the opposite direction).
pblanc mentioned that the Rival and Shaman have the opposite hull configuration, which makes me wonder if someone got the bow and stern reversed at point in the process? I know of a building that got build 180 degrees spun around on the north-south axis. Anyhow, if paddler likes his or her ride and switches from a Rival to a Shaman or the other way around, he or she might prefer to reverse the outfitting direction to achieve a more familiar hull reaction or performance.
Last edited by Paddle Power on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Brian
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Re: Millbrook Rival
No confusion. The Shaman was designed by Harold Deal to be a little edgier in the bow and looser in the stern. The Shaman is also decidedly Swede-form and significantly narrower in the bow than the stern, both at the water line and the gunwales. Harold designed it that way so that it would engage on eddy lines more crisply when weighting the bow. When surfing the boat, it is best to lean back some and un-weight the bow. Weighting the more rounded and rockered stern allows the bow to be freed up and pivoted around the stern fairly easily.Paddle Power wrote:I have not paddle a composite Rival but I found it a fast boat. A composite layup would be even faster!
Symmetrical boats can of course be paddled in either direction with the same performance. This is sometime of help if you reoutfit a used canoe and wish to reverse the bow and stern or have some solo-tandem outfitting that requires opposite directions (i.e. solo one direction and tandem the opposite direction).
pblanc mentioned that the Rival and Shaman have the opposite hull configuration, which makes me wonder if someone got the bow and stern reversed at point in the process? I know of a building that got build 180 degrees spun around on the north-south axis. Anyhow, if paddler likes his or her ride and switches from a Rival to a Shaman or the other way around, he or she might prefer to reverse the outfitting direction to achieve a more familiar hull reaction or performance.
If you look closely at this photo of the Shaman (bow is pointing to the left) I think you can see that what edge the boat has is off-set forward of center, and that the stern is a bit more rockered, and definitely more rounded, than the bow: http://www.flickr.com/photos/leeann-cha ... /lightbox/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you look at this photo of the side profile of a Rival I think you can appreciate that something very different is going on (bow is again pointing to the left): http://boatertalk.com/product/product-i ... p?id=16885" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think that you can appreciate that this time what edge the boat has is all aft of center.
I can't find a good picture of an upside-down Rival but this might give some hint of the asymmetry: http://boatertalk.com/product/product-i ... p?id=21830" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The bow is nearer the camera. The stern is not well seen in the photo, but you might be able to just appreciate the shallow V tendency toward the stern. If you have an actual boat in the flesh, turn it over and examine it, the degree of asymmetry is immediately apparent.
The Rival is nothing like a mirror image in any way, but it does have less stern than bow rocker, and has a bit of a shallow V and a little harder chine as one goes toward the stern. The intent was to facilitate tracking which it does. Some like that and some don't.
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Paddle Power
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Re: Millbrook Rival
Sounds like a good ww tripping boat.[The Rival] has a bit of a shallow V and a little harder chine as one goes toward the stern. The intent was to facilitate tracking which it does.
Brian
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