Cool Outfitting from Germany

[C1Deli]

Great photos on this german-only page on SoulBoater:

http://www.soulboater.com/sbt2004/core/ ... 7&lang=deu

[the great gonzo]

The cost however for this conversion kit is apparently €500.00
I think I'll stick with minicell foam and regular straps...

martin

[sbroam]

Interesting and certainly a spiffy color. However, it looks to be bulky and at 500 euros (which I'm pretty sure > $500) I think I'll pass...

All the same, welcome back Edwin!

Scott

[Sir Adam]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... uage_tools

I'll try and add this link to the Outfitting site at some point as well.

[Onearm]

Hi,
the price of the C1 construction looks high but the costs for the material are approximately 200€ and I need 20-30Hours to finish a C1. I thing that a construction which relieves your joints and and has the same price like a Kayak is Ok!?

[the great gonzo]

Onearm,

I do not doubt the cost in a way that from a materials and time point of view (molds are expensive), however at €500 for a conversion (that is over CAN$ 800.00) I doubt if you will be sucessful in the market.
I can get a very professionally looking and feeling conversion that hold you securely, are safe and comfortable done around here that cost me half as much, and some of them even have the advantage thatI can, should I ever decide to sell the boat, convert it back into a K1.
I think that this conversion is great from a technical point of view, however I doubt if there is a market for a conversion in this price class, as it adds about 50% to the cost of the boat.
Also as far as the loads on my joints are concerned, I found that from personal experience the most important contributors seem to be a) saddle height (the higher the more comfy), b) saddle width (if the saddle is to narrow I seem to put more weight on my lower limbs) and c) paddling (1/2 to 3/4 inches of foam do the trick).

Why is this outfitting easier on your joints than others? I cant find any explanation in the text, and don't see anything in the pictures that would explain it.

martin

[SlickStick]

maybe he means its easier on the joints because you don't have to build it yourself, which from my experience involves a lot of kneeling on the ground.

[chuck naill]

Seems that this type of saddle would limit the paddler from lowering the seat height. However the outfitting looks great.

I have seen expert paddlers boats and the outfitting many times is foam and duct tape configurations that while functional, look sloppy. What ever works, right? I saw one paddler using a beach ball rather that the higer priced manufactured overthrusters. I love these guys because it is function first and foremost.

[Wilko]

Guys, you seem to misunderstand Markus here. First of all, he gets the total price of a C-boat to roughly the same level as that of a ready made kayak, because he's made a deal with several manufacturers that he gets empty hulls at a greatly reduced price. That way he can convert them to C-1 without all those wretched holes already being in them and still get an end result that is affordable.

Also, if you ever get a chance to sit in one, no way your minicell folling around comes even close to the product he manages to make.

Sure, ordering a set like that with the idea of buying a complete k-1 and converting it afterwards is making no sense, but he does it differently and ends up with very good quality results that you can't make yourself.

Wilko

http://wilko.webzone.ru

[chuck naill]

Wilko,

If you have never used a first class minicell set up, then you would not understand our comments. I would doubt that there would be a more light weight configuration.

Buying hulls without the kayak outfitting is common here.


Lastly $500 is alot to pay for a saddle that cannot be modified

[the great gonzo]

Wilko,

I agree with Chuck, a well done conversion with high quality minicell foam leaves nothing to desire and is most likely much lighter than a plastic saddle . If you have never seen a conversion done by for instance Jamie Dors, you don'tknow how nice a minicell based bulkhead and saddle system can be !

I don't know if I misunderstan Markus, but I read the article on soulboater again and did not find any mention that he could provide a fully converted boat for anything near the the cost of a kayak. All that Markus mentions is that fully converted boats from certain european manufacturers are available directly through him and that the cost for the conversion alone is Euro 500.00.

It may make some sense to get a boat converted through him if you live in Germany and if he really get's as good a deal on boats as you say, but for people living outside of Europe, I think minicell foam is right now the best option for a conversion, at least until someone builds another affordable conversion console similar to the old Harmony one.

martin

[Sir Adam]

Chuck Niall, Martin, etc...-pre-wheelboy I would have agreed with you 100%. BUT I've been very, very impressed with Marko's saddle system. The seat (if I recall correctly) is about 5", which is lower than all of my boats save my squirt boats, which I usually can't spent more than an hour in if I'm lucky (I don't remember the exact height, just that I thought it was about 1" lower than I usually use (6-6.5")). I have NO problem sitting ALL DAY in the Wheelboy. I don't know what the difference is, but it's definitely there. Could Jamie Dors replicate it? Probably-his conversions are SWEET!, but for a drop in-bolt in option it's really, really nice. So I'd say the weight may be about the same (or it may be lighter if you've properly reinforced your hull after removing the seat, if the boat you're converted warrents this), but for the average foam shaper it's much quicker and easier to get a good useable boat (I usually figure it takes 1 season of boating and tweaking before I get the outfitting "right", and even then I tend to change it every few years, depending the my ideas and the boat...). That said I too think the price is a bit high, especially considering the euro-us exchange rate right now, but if converted boats can in fact be purchased for around the price of the fully outfitted kayak it's probably a good buy...if you are willing to purchase new (and are in europe...at least until the exchange rates change again in a few years...).

[the great gonzo]

Sir Adam,

As far as comfort is concerned, my experience is that what really makes the BIG difference (at least for me), is not only the height of the saddle, but width of the saddle has at least as big of an influence.
I noticed this after paddling the Shaggy Sith, which has a leally low moulded in saddle (~5- 5 1/2 ") and I was really comfy in it, while in my Deli with a 6 1/2" saddle I had to get out at least once per hour.
The biggest difference I noticed was that while the deli saddle is ~8" wide, the Sith saddle was more like 11-12" wide.
I think that on narrow saddles you pinch some nerves in your bum, while on wide saddles the load is distributed more evenly, which prevents pressure points from developing.

I have since widened the saddles in most of my boats, with great results.

I had a friend try out the Noah C2 in the pool last night with his grandson, he used to paddle a Cascade but pretty much switched to th dark side (yakin') because his legs would go numb after 5 minutes. They were in it for over 1/2 hour, and his legs never went to sleep. The saddle height is the same as the cascade, but while that Cascade saddle has the original width, I widened the Noah C2 saddles to ~11 inches.

I do not know how wide the Drakkar saddle is, but the saddle Markus makes does look like it is less than 10" wide to me.

martin

[Markus]

Hi,
my english is not the best and it is difficult for me to understand all your conversation. But I try to answer a few open questions. Yes, the prize is high, but Germany is expensive. I can't do nothing against it:-( A full fitted C1 coast nearly the same prize like the same K1. To build it back to a K1 is difficult because I stick all the fitting and the seat in the hull. And I order the hulls without the K1 seat and fitting. But I am sure that if you have enough time you be able to remove it and find a K1-seat;- ) The ready C1 has approximatly the same weight as the K1. I use the plastic seat becuase it makes the hull stiff and I have a fastening for the Strapsystem. Using foams with different grade of hardness it is possible to relief parts of the legs e.g. kneecap. The fitting is custom made for the owner. If it is possible send me a picture of the minicell seat construction. cu on the river
Markus

[the great gonzo]

Markus,

Don't get me wrong, I like the look of your outfitting (and I know cost of things in Europe), I just don't like the cost of it .
I do unfortunately not have any pictures of a good minicell foam outfitting, but the following link shows something very similar.

martin

http://playak.com/article.php?sid=104