Fiberglass Mold Making

[Paddle Power]

http://www.clippercanoes.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
still make a composite Viper 11 and 12
it may not be listed on their site but an email or call will get you a new one

[skrag]

"pretty sure"

Look deeper.

[Sir Adam]

Given the tiny amount of profit (if any!) designers make from whitewater canoes I've always held it is best to ask permission first; for older designs it may be granted with no $ due, or maybe just a tasty beverage:) . We're a small community really, and a little respect to one another goes a long way.

Others see no problem duplicating a design if it is only for your own use. Ask the one who designed the boat and you'll know for sure (and the answer from a few I know to be "go ahead", while a few others would like a small token).

Do some folks start making boats from a mold or plug without the correct rights for sale? Absolutely. Others may make a small tweak to the design and call it their own. Might be legal in some cases, but doesn't make it right.

I've found so far that asking has meant some great conversations with some very interesting folks, many of whom shared far more knowledge with me than i would have thought. So by asking you might just get more than "yes":)

Off the soap box for now:)

[Einar]

Viper 11's in composite are made legally. I own one, paddled it yesterday. They are popular out West, popularity as a measure being that, I know of 5-6 locally.

They are made under licence by Western Canoeing, a large British Columbia composite canoe manufacturer, that produces the Clipper line of canoes for various markets; been in business for many years, lots of continuous in house skill.

My hull was custom made for me and I requested no gel coat, for less weight. It quickly will show the use & abuse without the gel coat; cuts, scratches, abrasion, but repairs are easier as there is no colour matching. I don't care about the cosmetics.
Western usually touches mine up every 2 years for $100 but this year I'm going to haul it into the shop and do it myself. A pro repair adds only ounces, if that, and it makes the hull stronger than factory where it is most useful anyways.

A friend also has a Viper 11, with gel coat, we often paddle together, hitting the same rocks and yesterday we compared hulls and commented on how tough composite is. Absolutely no complaints on the purchase. (10 years old)

I also own an Occoee in royalex. On Sunday I ran them both in a local OC slalom event, Tamihi 50. I ran the Occoee in the first heat but the sheer line of the bow tagged one gate pole for a touch penalty. In the second heat I ran the Viper 11 and was able to sneak the bow under and round up the pole tighter.
Ran a clean heat but still didn't Win, Place, or Show
I had the feeling the Occoee was faster, but then that was in the first heat; probably-maybe, it was me? Forgot to check the compared times (corrected for pole touch)
Maybe Yarnell boat has that info.

A while ago I got a chance to paddle a privately pulled composite Occoee. A really interesting hull, something that I would be interested in owning. Liked it.

Looking forward to the composite Outrage by Millbrook Canoe. It's just one opinion but a composite hull always feels more rigid and livelier to me and it seems possible to "tweak" the radius of the chine a bit, making it sharper and a better carver. Those features would make the Outrage a more interesting hull, to me. As it is now it is a good hull, but not overly dynamic.
e

[yarnellboat]

Einar, I don't have the full T50 results until they forward us a spreadsheet, but I can tell you that if you had a clean run, you'll be ahead of a number of people, including me (though I dispute the touch they gave me on gate 15 [unless of course it could've been my stern exiting the outside pole while I was cross-eyed and sucking in my beer gut away from the inside pole]). My hat goes off to you! Those shifty, narrow, green gates were too much for me this year - there was just too many ways to touch too many gates! Though somehow Gisela managed to drag us through cleanly in mixed tandem, which totally made my day, so I could forget my solo

Thanks for your help with the event, and good run (ya jerk!)!

And yes composite boats are light, crisp-feeling to paddle, and durable, I should get one. I wish Western/Clipper made Viper 11.5 - 11 is too wet, but 12 is too big. I should try Jenny's Hellman Otter.

Yarnellboat.

[kaz]

Well said, Adam.

[composites]

Again Adam....well said
Andy Phillips
Composite Creations

[JimW]

We don't have open canoe slalom here in the UK, but on Saturday there happened to be 3 of us present with canoes and the organisers were running around trying to get more teams to enter, so we did.

Option, Supernova and Big Dog Force..... "Dream Team"

It was a division 3 and 4 event on a small river with relatively little flow so it was possible to line up and get the gates, but Mark was never going to be fast doing that with a supernova! Gary in the Big Dog Force may have sneaked under some gates but Mark and I couldn't sneak any. Because I had raced in my C1 already (although the team event was after the course change) I was supposed to lead in the Option - after a couple of touches I realised speed was not important so slowed down and concentrated on getting the rest clean and then waited between 18 and the finish line for the others. Gary was supposed to follow Mark and if he needed help to turn quicker push the stern around - I couldn't see if he was actually carrying this part of the plan out but the judges were doubled up laughing at us!
It was a new experience for me like yarnellboat describes - gliding through a gate with the blade slicing ready for minute adjustments to keep paddle and body parts and boat away from the poles and then looking over my shoulder to see when the stern was clear before taking a stroke that would cause it to swing....
We took 267.4 seconds plus 20 penalties, which is 10 touches - not bad for 3 boats over 18 gates unable to sneak under poles - for comparison my C1 times over the same course were 119.9+6 and 120.8 + 2, I was especially annoyed since I had managed it clean twice in free practice, and that single touch on my second run was downstream gate 1 - how could I possibly have clipped it? (I did, hard with my t-grip hand).

We amused the (small) crowd and judges so much that we got a medal for "most entertaining team"

We really need to get together and start some open canoe slalom here, I reckon composite Ocoee's or maybe Covert's would be really good for it.

[Einar]

i could be wrong (it has never happened, but I'm ready for it) but our T-50 OC solo winner was Marc in his home built composite. (Yarnell has the details)
Skill at paddling might have been a factor too as the Marc came in clean at 80 sec leaving me in the spray at 120 sec.

Local slalom races are a lot of fun and a good place to try different hulls of different materials and designs.
We have everything on the course from plastic Options to composite home builds to royalex Captions.

T-50 encourages beginner/experienced mixes in tandems and lots of hull loaning to intermediate solos.
Everyone tries hard but no one takes themselves too seriously but there are enough experienced racers on hand in good composite race hulls that show off the right moves. More easily demonstrated than easily copied though, as I found.
e

[Roy]

Do some folks start making boats from a mold or plug without the correct rights for sale? Absolutely. Others may make a small tweak to the design and call it their own. Might be legal in some cases, but doesn't make it right.

I've found so far that asking has meant some great conversations with some very interesting folks, many of whom shared far more knowledge with me than i would have thought. So by asking you might just get more than "yes":)
)

Charlie Walbridge has a nice discussion of the issue in his boat building book...he agrees with Sir Adam. I do, too.

I have made any number of molds off other people's work...when I was less mature, settled, and responsible, I would just pull a mold, or 1-off boat, without any royalty concerns. Then, one day I was wet sanding a Dynamic hull, getting ready to mold it and I had this Roy-grows-up epiphany (since I have not had many of those, I paid attention). I realized it was an incredibly beautiful shape, a shape I wanted, a shape someone (Hearn, et al.) spent untold hours and dollars to get right.

Since then, I ask. Most designers are fine with a boat or two being made without any payment; some want money.

I have asked wing-nut designers and big companies...and, have always been well treated.

FWIW, I also ask when I am using < a whole wetted surface. I want, say, to use the middle 5' of an Ocoee...I'd ask.

Roy