what will stick? WARNING: shot through with details!

[MotorCityOC-1]

The Continuing Saga of Kevin's Busted up Phantom...

I have removed the rest of the shattered middle section of my kevlar felt skid plate, and pushed out the big dent. Removing the rest of the skid plate is out of the question, because when I try, sometimes chunks of the outer layer of ABS come off with it. The remaining ends are jagged.

I plan to fill in any divets/core shots with PC-7, allow that to cure, and sand the whole mess back into a bow-like shape. Then I'll replace the middle section of skid plate, which is about 1/3 of it's total area, near the waterline.

stay with me now! [ed]

I would then like to put SOMETHING that ovelaps the entire middle section, and extends beyond it at least 3 inches in either direction- either another layer of kevlar felt, or a molded plate of 1/8 ABS. This, in an effort to not leave seams between segments of skid plate, which would probably provide a handy place for future, rips, tears, and gashes.

Will either 1/8 ABS or kevlar felt stick to the already cured felt skid plate ends that are still on the boat?

If I go with one inner replacement piece of felt and an overlapping outer piece, should I install at the same time, or let the inner cure 1st? I was thinking that if I allowed the inner to cure, I could fill the spaces in between segments with PC-7 to make a more uniform backing for the outer layer of plate. I suspect that not filling in a dent very well before installing the skid plate in the first place contributed to it's premature demise, and I don't want to make that mistake again.

almost done [ed]

If I go with a overlapping piece of molded ABS, I'll probably use Marine Goop. Think that'll work? I already have the ABS and the Goop, so I feel like there's not much to lose there. Of course, I have the felt and epoxy too.

Could I get away with just one replacement piece of felt that overlaps the broken ends of the 1st generation skid plate?

Does anybody have a nicely converted Nomad 8.5 or H3 255 they want to trade? SICK OF ROYALEX!

K

[ezwater]

Well, removing the existing skid plate would really be a chore, but it could probably be done without pulling out more ABS chunks. I would find a 1/2" drill and a disk sanding attachment, and then I would try to feather the skid plate down using really coarse disks. Other tools which might help include a big, coarse rasp, and a saw which you could use to cut grooves into the surface of the old skid plate.

However, it sounds like you want to get the boat into the water sooner, so your plan for filling the gaps and covering over will accomplish your goal.

The main advantage of completely removing the old skid plate is that you could also strip the vinyl off the ABS, and then you could use S-glass and Kevlar cloth to make a strong and smooth repair. If ABS is getting you down, it may be time to convert a kayak.

[sbroam]

... or try a Prelude or wait for the Fat Boy...

[madmike]

If you are going to feather the edges of the felt with a sander remember to use 2 layers of masking tape on the hull around the felt. this will kepp the sander off the rest of the boat.

[MotorCityOC-1]

good tips.

Rather than feathering the broken skid plate ends and overlapping with one piece of felt, I think I'll use an inner,then an ovelapping outer, with the gaps filled in with PC-7. Because the bow has been dented twice, I think it'll need the extra layer of skid plate, and the overlap at the 'seams.'

I am open to other ideas though. I agree that IF I could get the old skid plate off in its entirety, the best thing would be woven kevlar and s-glass. But it ain't happening. I'll try that on my next new boat- since I seem to be Krash Kevin

The big question remains; will it stick?

Will resin-soaked kevlar felt stick to resin-cured kevlar felt?

Will 1/8" ABS stick to cured felt?

Obviously I couldn't use a normal ABS adhesive for my ABS 'overplate' so I was gunna try Marine Goop. Has anybody used this stuff?

Of these two choices for the 'overplate,' which would you go with, kevlar, or ABS? Is there a compelling reason to go with something entirely different?

Thanks,
K

[sbroam]

Sounds like you might want to go with 1/8" stainless, use the Marine Goop to waterproof the bolt holes.

By layering new glass/kevlar over your existing skid plate, it will certainly be rigid, but will it be brittle?

I'm not sure about using Goop to secure ABS to resin/kevlar/glass. I know ABS cement works great securing ABS to ABS because it seems to dissolve a thin layer on each surface then it resolidifies. With Goop you would be relying on pure adhesion, at least on the glass side.

Personally, I think I'd try to get the existing skid plate off with the belt sander or a carefully applied angle grinder then apply ABS over that with ABS cement or maybe the Goop.

Is the Phantom symmetrical? Could you turn it around and beat on the other end for a while?

Good luck!

Scott

[dixie_boater]

Kevin,

The bow stem of any open boat is gonna take repeated hits. No matter how good the paddler eventually it will get wacked. The Kevlar and S-glass repair will not take these blows as well as an ABS plate. You said you want to get this boat back on the water asap, but you also don't want to have it returning to drydock for repairs in a couple of weeks.

Remove as much of the kevlar felt skidplate as possible. You mentioned that chunks of ABS are breaking off with the old skidplate. Sand those pieces smooth and establish a good boundary between the old skidplate and the new ABS plate. Don't try to overlap the new ABS with the old skidplate and you won't have adhesive performance problems. If you use a variable speed drill or ginder operate it a slow speed. Too high a speed will increase the heat created by friction and the plastic will melt. Go slow with the grinding and inspect the hull surface frequently. I recommend a coarse 24 or 36 grit sanding disc. Remove only the skidplate and the surrounding vinyl. Surface prep is the key to a good repair.

After the surface is prepped you're ready to apply the PC7 Epoxy paste. Mix it thoroughly and press it into the damaged hull. Put on an excess amount and let it cure completely. When you grind it smooth with the surrounding hull there should be no voids left in the surface. The hull should now be closely restored to it's original shape.

Make a pattern for your ABS plate out of paper or clear film. Heat and then form the piece of plastic to your hull. After it cools grind the outer edges for a smooth taper to the hull. Since the plate will be bonded to either the ABS or the epoxy putty (and not the old skidplate) there are a couple of good adhesives to use. Since you can't afford the methacylate adhesive use 3M 3532 Urethane adhesive. I have found it to work well in this application and is much cheaper than buying a quart kit of methacrylate adhesive ($140 plus). The Goop products (including the marine grade stuff) take a long time to cure and, on occasions, may not cure completely under the plate.

If you want to attempt this repair with ABS I could send you the plastic and any other materials you need. I have a 4' x 8' sheet of 1/8" and about a 4' x 4' sheet of 3/32" plastic in stock for my own repair business. I believe you once mentioned being a student and a little tight on money so I'll help you keep your costs down

[Guest]

We used to make skid plates by heat-molding Kydex sheet, but if you can get ABS, it would be stronger.

[MotorCityOC-1]

dixie_boater,

assuming for a second that I don't want the remaining segments of kevlar skidplate to be in a co-dependant relationship with the ABS section of skidplate...

won't the good boundaries present opportune places to further bust up my bow? that's the whole rationale for installing some kinda somethin' that overlaps at the joints. one continuous skidplate (of any material) would be ideal, but difficult given the circumstances. overlapping seems like the next best thing, and the issue there is what will stick to resin-cured kevlar felt? if not ABS, then how about another layer of resin-soaked felt? it seems like having joints/seams/good boundaries would be the last choice.

i do realize that you're advocating removing all the old skidplate- i'm just trying to weasel out of it

How about this- at what point along the length of a normal skidplate is the hull least vulnerable? Say for instance that by taking another few inches of old skidplate off, I'll be well below the waterline and getting close to the flatter part of the hull- is that a more reasonable place for a seam in the skidplate than just below the waterline? less likely to break there?

sadly, i do have time constraints. I have March 12-20 off, and I'd like to spend as much of that time as possible on the water. So what I'm shooting for is better than duct tape.

[sbroam]

Better than duct tape? That's... That's... crazy talk! UnAmerican or something!

There are stronger, more attractive, more durable solutions. But nothing, absolutely nothing, is - pound for pound, inch for inch, dollar for dollar - better than a good duct tape for a short time solution. And sometimes short term can last a surprisingly long time...

It would at least get you on the water for spring break and you could engineer the perfect solution at leisure later. I've messed up innumerable projects in haste...

This message brought to you by the Duct Tape Council.

[dixie_boater]

You need the boat for next week so plan a short term fix that can be utilized later for a long term solution.

For now don't worry about removing the rest of the skidplate. You can decide on how much to remove (or not remove) later. Sand and prep the torn area for application of the PC7 epoxy. Fill in the void and sand it smooth after it cures thoroughly. Be sure to keep the boat in an area where the temps are at least in the mid 60's to low 70's so the epoxy cures properly. Too low of a temp and it won't cure completely.

Following Scott's advice apply a good duct tape over the cured epoxy. The will cover the area and protect the epoxy paste for the short term.

The epoxy paste will keep water from soaking into the exposed foam core of the Royalex. It would be hard to dry this part of the hull out later when you're ready to do a permanent repair. For future reference, alcohol is useful in displacing the water that soaks into the foam. After next week you can take off the duct tape and do a permanent repair.

I'll try to answer you're question as to what part of the old skidpate is the least vulnerable. A skid plate serves as an abrasion resistance surface at the grunch or bottom edge. At the top edge it protects the stem of the boat. The area I see the most damage to kevlar felt skidplates is at the waterline. That area of the skidplate takes more frequent blows than any other. It is better to have a seam between the old plate and the repair either well above the waterline or well below it.

Most of the kevlar skidplates I have seen on newer royalex hulls don't last very long. They break up when the boat takes a good whack like you experienced in the Puppy Chute at the Dog. So whatever part of the plate you leave on the bottom edge will probably break or shatter in the near future saving you from the work to remove it.

I have never run the Puppy Chute at Soc-em-dog and probably won't after what you experienced. There are a lot of rocks in the bottom. At 2.0' (on the bridge) the hole is dam bad at the Dog so you were wise not to run the meat. Next time just carry around on the left.

I have fixed royalex boats which took hard blows on their stems that crushed the plastic completely. By having a strong ABS repair those boats lasted a lot longer than their owners ever expected. If the boat continues to be paddled on class III or better water it will start to break somewhere else. Fix badly damaged areas with strong repairs so you don't have to repair the same area a second time. Save the time and expense repairs require for newly damaged areas.