Hey Bob,
I respect your opinion and but just like 2 years ago when we had this discussion, I could not disagree with you more. You implied that boaters with less than class IV skills should not come to Nationals so we could have it on more challenging water. That way it could be a bigger show attracting more spectators and more (?) hairboat racer types. As far as growing the sport and attracting sponsors, yes, I would have appreciated more backing from some ccmpanies for the Montana event. But Esquif, Millbrook and some of the local paddling shops more than made up for the lack of response from most potential sponsors. Five people including the owners of Esquif travelled all the way from Quebec (with a trailer load of boats) to support the race. They also put on a hades of an event in Jonquiere this past July. The water was pretty challenging this time but I didn't see you there.... There were about 90 other folks who were there (most of which CAN and DO run class III+ to class IV) and I would wager that 90% of them would agree with me that the average Nationals course is appropriate for the event. Any regulars disagree?
Which leads me to another point.... I don't doubt your ability to run gnarly water but when I looked up your results for OC1 Open Rec , one of the most competitive events at Nationals, I noticed that you were 21st of 26 in that class. You either had 1 miss and 2 gate touches or 7 touches and with those penalties were almost two and half times slower than the fastest racer. Now how hard do you think those same gates would have been on class III, and after you were mostly full of water by gate 5? If it was so easy, why weren't you a little more competitive? I am not trying to rip you up here... only making a point. It is OPEN boating and if the water is class III+, then everyone is just going to fill up and be out of control. That would be just a hoot to watch... When I watched the slalom course in Athens I tried to look at it with open boater eyes and my opinion is that the very best open boaters could run that water but only make a few gates. Not much point in that.
I am also concerned with the sport of slalom and particularly OC slalom but to grow it we have to get more people doing it. Lets keep it accessible. Nationals doesn't have to be some elite event for a few hair boaters.
One more comment to Longboatin... I would also disagree with you on the benifits of slalom racing for rec boating difficult water. My 6 years of attending Nationals and other regional races has done more for my abilities on class IV runs than just doing those types of runs alone.
I look forward to more lively debate on the subject!
Alan Burgmuller
2006 Open boat Nationals
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yarnellboat
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Keep it accessible! As a wannabe, I agree. Timely discussion in fact.
I'm a very recreational open boater. Class III rapids still scare me (remember things are cold and continuous here!) and playing by side-surfing in big holes still seems counter-intuitive.
I've never paddled a race boat. I've never worn a bib. I also live on the West coast, where it seems there are very few canoeists, and even fewer events, festivals, clinics and sponsors, organizers, coaches, etc. I feel left out and limited. Around here any way to encourage people to paddle canoes would be a good thing.
Most festivals and races I know of (around here) are either very kayak-oriented, or don't have big rec or open classes. I've been curious about these events for a few seasons now, but I haven't gone, partly just due to bad timing this season, but also because I'm not a class IV creeker, I don't know which gate is which and I don't have an interest in serious racing or race boats.
I hear you Bob that for Nationals-level race you'd prefer to see harder courses. Maybe for Nationals, sure, but if lots of rec open canoes are participating at these events, shutting them out would be a bad idea!
We need to invite people to try different boats, different events and challenge them to test their skills in different ways. Preferrably ways that are fun and friendly.
As far as spectators go, sure throw in a big boof if you must, but I want to watch something where technique is important and where there are close races, with many racers able to push each other - for that, lots of the racers need to be able make the gates with relatively dry boats - it's a slalom race, about grace & speed, not a survival challenge. (Although, a last-boat-floating race on bigger water would be fun too.)
This very weekend I've organized for a few class II - III open boaters in Vancouver to take a slalom clinic ! Once we learn which gate is which, maybe we'll get the courage to show up at a NW race with our plastic tubs!!
Pat.
I'm a very recreational open boater. Class III rapids still scare me (remember things are cold and continuous here!) and playing by side-surfing in big holes still seems counter-intuitive.
I've never paddled a race boat. I've never worn a bib. I also live on the West coast, where it seems there are very few canoeists, and even fewer events, festivals, clinics and sponsors, organizers, coaches, etc. I feel left out and limited. Around here any way to encourage people to paddle canoes would be a good thing.
Most festivals and races I know of (around here) are either very kayak-oriented, or don't have big rec or open classes. I've been curious about these events for a few seasons now, but I haven't gone, partly just due to bad timing this season, but also because I'm not a class IV creeker, I don't know which gate is which and I don't have an interest in serious racing or race boats.
I hear you Bob that for Nationals-level race you'd prefer to see harder courses. Maybe for Nationals, sure, but if lots of rec open canoes are participating at these events, shutting them out would be a bad idea!
We need to invite people to try different boats, different events and challenge them to test their skills in different ways. Preferrably ways that are fun and friendly.
As far as spectators go, sure throw in a big boof if you must, but I want to watch something where technique is important and where there are close races, with many racers able to push each other - for that, lots of the racers need to be able make the gates with relatively dry boats - it's a slalom race, about grace & speed, not a survival challenge. (Although, a last-boat-floating race on bigger water would be fun too.)
This very weekend I've organized for a few class II - III open boaters in Vancouver to take a slalom clinic ! Once we learn which gate is which, maybe we'll get the courage to show up at a NW race with our plastic tubs!!
Pat.
Soon after my last post I had some regrets that my comments may have sounded a bit testy. Sorry about that... I picked on Bob's results because HE was the one who had an issue regarding the lack of challenging courses. That was out of line on my part but I was trying to make the point that running gates clean and fast is difficult on even class II. One of my few regrets at the Blackfoot race was the low flow of 1500cfs instead of the 30 year average of 2500cfs for those dates. There was little time as it was so moving it up was not an option. Of the six course I have been to, Minden and Jonquiere were the most challenging but all of them had 2 or 3 cruxy moves. Oh, and sorry to needle you one more time Bob, but you can't use the Phantom as an excuss for being slow.... Casey (12 years old) had one of the only clean runs at Minden and one of the fastest runs in any age group... in a Phantom. I believe there were 115 people at that event.
Also since writing earlier this evening I had this brainstorm for you to pursue. I recalled the downriver portion of the downriver/combined this year at Jonquiere and how it took on the look of boatercross toward the finish line. You could join the Open Canoe Slalom committee and lobby for open boat boatercross as a exibition event in Charlotte this year. You X boater types can punch holes and boof rocks and whatever.... I'm thinking a Ben Hur kind of thing that would even include the conveyor belt ride!
And just one more thing, between now and the Charlotte event, go enter a really hard decked boat type slalom race... in an open boat. I'm sure somebody can suggest one for next Spring. Let us know how it goes.
Also since writing earlier this evening I had this brainstorm for you to pursue. I recalled the downriver portion of the downriver/combined this year at Jonquiere and how it took on the look of boatercross toward the finish line. You could join the Open Canoe Slalom committee and lobby for open boat boatercross as a exibition event in Charlotte this year. You X boater types can punch holes and boof rocks and whatever.... I'm thinking a Ben Hur kind of thing that would even include the conveyor belt ride!
And just one more thing, between now and the Charlotte event, go enter a really hard decked boat type slalom race... in an open boat. I'm sure somebody can suggest one for next Spring. Let us know how it goes.
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John Coraor
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Longboatin:
It is an oxymoron that a slalom course artificially increases the difficulty of a rapid over its natural state, that's the initial origin of slalom racing - to simulate the moves required to run a more difficult rapid without increasing the natural dangers (i.e. hitting a pole doesn't have the same nasty outcome as broadsiding a rock). However, I vigorously contest your assertion that "slalom has a tendency to limit possiblity, producing a Class III-expert mentality, like running easy water in hairier boats."
Sure there are many intermediate racers who are pretty good on a course, but don't boat Class V. Many of them have no interest in pushing those limits. Yet, I'd be willing to bet that everyone of those boaters became better at cruising as a result of their slalom experience; I know that I have. Are there other useful things to be learned from cruising more difficult rivers; you bet! However, slalom racing doesn't "limit possibility," it expands it by enhancing boat control. Of course, what one does with those enhanced skills is up to the individual paddler. Some use it just for racing, some cruise Class III, others challenge Class V. That's merely a choice, not a "limitation."
John
It is an oxymoron that a slalom course artificially increases the difficulty of a rapid over its natural state, that's the initial origin of slalom racing - to simulate the moves required to run a more difficult rapid without increasing the natural dangers (i.e. hitting a pole doesn't have the same nasty outcome as broadsiding a rock). However, I vigorously contest your assertion that "slalom has a tendency to limit possiblity, producing a Class III-expert mentality, like running easy water in hairier boats."
Sure there are many intermediate racers who are pretty good on a course, but don't boat Class V. Many of them have no interest in pushing those limits. Yet, I'd be willing to bet that everyone of those boaters became better at cruising as a result of their slalom experience; I know that I have. Are there other useful things to be learned from cruising more difficult rivers; you bet! However, slalom racing doesn't "limit possibility," it expands it by enhancing boat control. Of course, what one does with those enhanced skills is up to the individual paddler. Some use it just for racing, some cruise Class III, others challenge Class V. That's merely a choice, not a "limitation."
John
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Sir Adam
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Great discussion...
Nice discussion folks, let's just not get TOO personal here.
And for the record in my humble opinion there is a bit of difference between a 12 year old (or any teenager) in a Phantom and someone who weighs a bit more....sometimes it IS the equipement....personally I'm more uncomfortable in my WildWater boat (or the Oxygen for that matter) on Class III than I am in my Viper or Cascade in class IV or V. The consequences are certainly less, but that unstable-going-to-flip-any-moment-and-then-what feeling in my stomach is MUCH greater.... Just as I believe we should all try going retro sometime (a la Longboatin ) I also think folks in other craft could learn a lot hopping into boats they are not used to. I'd like to think Seth learned a bit more about boats when he hopped in my Acrobat at the NB Armada this year:)
Regarding slalom in general, it needs to be kept accessible and should be promoted more...and we as a community should support it more. Alden was kind enough to come up to the Hudson Derby once and provide some competition for me (I'm afraid I wasn't much competition for him, though), but usually I'm the only CBoater there in a CBoat....
And for the record in my humble opinion there is a bit of difference between a 12 year old (or any teenager) in a Phantom and someone who weighs a bit more....sometimes it IS the equipement....personally I'm more uncomfortable in my WildWater boat (or the Oxygen for that matter) on Class III than I am in my Viper or Cascade in class IV or V. The consequences are certainly less, but that unstable-going-to-flip-any-moment-and-then-what feeling in my stomach is MUCH greater.... Just as I believe we should all try going retro sometime (a la Longboatin ) I also think folks in other craft could learn a lot hopping into boats they are not used to. I'd like to think Seth learned a bit more about boats when he hopped in my Acrobat at the NB Armada this year:)
Regarding slalom in general, it needs to be kept accessible and should be promoted more...and we as a community should support it more. Alden was kind enough to come up to the Hudson Derby once and provide some competition for me (I'm afraid I wasn't much competition for him, though), but usually I'm the only CBoater there in a CBoat....
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
Hi Bob, Thanks for offering your opinion. It’s definitely stirred up some interest.
I’ve only been racing open boat slalom for a few years, and it has been exclusively at the Minden course in Canada, but here is my two cents:
I hear what you are saying about having a tougher course for an event like the Nationals, however I suspect that for the most part, the people who finish at the top of their classes would do so regardless of the difficulty of the course. I don’t think that offering a more challenging course will have any effect on the top finishers, but it will have a negative effect on the number of participants. Since open boating is a relatively fringe sport to begin with, the last thing it needs is a dwindling number of participants (if that happens, even Esquif will stop making boats!!!). Regarding spectator turn out, I don’t think that the average non-boating spectator could really appreciate the difference between class 2 (easy) and class 3+ (tougher) water. I suspect that an event with lots of racers would do more for generating spectator interest than an event with relatively few racers and tougher water.
Regarding the question about the merits of slalom racing and its effect on your overall level of paddling... I think it is one of the best ways to improve your paddling. Also, it can take a relatively mundane section of water and make it really challenging.
Just some food for thought... My personal experience has been that I’ve never met a great slalom boater is not a great all round boater, but I have met a few folks who prefer to run the tough stuff who are not great slalom boaters.
Cheers!
Glenn
I’ve only been racing open boat slalom for a few years, and it has been exclusively at the Minden course in Canada, but here is my two cents:
I hear what you are saying about having a tougher course for an event like the Nationals, however I suspect that for the most part, the people who finish at the top of their classes would do so regardless of the difficulty of the course. I don’t think that offering a more challenging course will have any effect on the top finishers, but it will have a negative effect on the number of participants. Since open boating is a relatively fringe sport to begin with, the last thing it needs is a dwindling number of participants (if that happens, even Esquif will stop making boats!!!). Regarding spectator turn out, I don’t think that the average non-boating spectator could really appreciate the difference between class 2 (easy) and class 3+ (tougher) water. I suspect that an event with lots of racers would do more for generating spectator interest than an event with relatively few racers and tougher water.
Regarding the question about the merits of slalom racing and its effect on your overall level of paddling... I think it is one of the best ways to improve your paddling. Also, it can take a relatively mundane section of water and make it really challenging.
Just some food for thought... My personal experience has been that I’ve never met a great slalom boater is not a great all round boater, but I have met a few folks who prefer to run the tough stuff who are not great slalom boaters.
Cheers!
Glenn
If I have to, I can get these old bones down some fairly serious water. What I don't like is bailing in the middle of the course. Fortunately, most course designers will create a line that's at least marginally dry if we're careful. But please, keep away from those steep drops into big waves (that I can't quarter) or wet holes.
And don't forget that OC-2s are people too.
And don't forget that OC-2s are people too.
Bob P
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Craig Smerda
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OC Nat's isn't just about racing. Ask anyone who has gone and they will tell you how fun this event can be. It is THE OC gathering. The social aspect alone is awesome. I can't give enough praise to Jacques from Esquif on his support alone of this event... (where as Bell has done jack squat! That's right... squat!!)This race has been held all over North America and there is nothing else like it. There are classes for virtually everyone and most any open boat. The course is set for all skill levels.... keep in mind that the way to draw new people is to not scare the h-e-ll out of them. There is of course always one gate that is the center of attention and on all paddlers minds.. if played by the announcers right (PAT! 
which one was it here in Wausau? Gate 17??) ... it becomes the crowds focus as well. There always seems to be new boats or prototypes to check out. The biggest bonus is the networking you can do.... you can literally get an open invitation from folks to paddle with them in their back yard anytime your in their neck-o-the-woods. If this event is in your backyard and you don't take advantage of it you are really missing out. I have missed the last two Nationals and hated not going. I will be in Charolette next year... hope to see you there too!
Craig
PS>> KAZ wins every class he enters so don't even bother signing up until you know what classes he's entered.....
which one was it here in Wausau? Gate 17??) ... it becomes the crowds focus as well. There always seems to be new boats or prototypes to check out. The biggest bonus is the networking you can do.... you can literally get an open invitation from folks to paddle with them in their back yard anytime your in their neck-o-the-woods. If this event is in your backyard and you don't take advantage of it you are really missing out. I have missed the last two Nationals and hated not going. I will be in Charolette next year... hope to see you there too! Craig
PS>> KAZ wins every class he enters so don't even bother signing up until you know what classes he's entered.....
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ChrisKelly
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My take.
First, a disclaimer; I have only raced in small, local events like the Missouri Whitewater Assn or the Alabama races. Even there I have not ben a raving success.
There is no question that paddling gates is way harder than just paddling the same river. It is also very good for my boating. It is one thing to be able to run Big Fred rapid. It is entirely another to run Big Fred such that I can catch the eddy just right to make the gates on both sides. I am confident that I can run Daddy's Creek but I am not confident that I can make gates in Nantahala Falls.
I regularly paddle class IV water sucessfully but cannot imagine running gates in class IV water. Part of the reason that I can survive and enjoy class IV water is that I have run and practiced in gates on class II water.
While kayak play has developed and emerged into an entirely new dicipline "canoe play" and canoe paddling (ww) is dwindling. I think there should be more races and they all ought to be on class II/III water. It is way that we can enjoy our sport and get much better at it. To be sure there are classes for open boats in the Gauley race and the Upper Yough race etc. There is plenty of opportunity for those who want to "go big." I hope to come to the Charlotte races, at least to see my betters shred the gates. Or, maybe....if they have a geezer class......... Chris Kelly
There is no question that paddling gates is way harder than just paddling the same river. It is also very good for my boating. It is one thing to be able to run Big Fred rapid. It is entirely another to run Big Fred such that I can catch the eddy just right to make the gates on both sides. I am confident that I can run Daddy's Creek but I am not confident that I can make gates in Nantahala Falls.
I regularly paddle class IV water sucessfully but cannot imagine running gates in class IV water. Part of the reason that I can survive and enjoy class IV water is that I have run and practiced in gates on class II water.
While kayak play has developed and emerged into an entirely new dicipline "canoe play" and canoe paddling (ww) is dwindling. I think there should be more races and they all ought to be on class II/III water. It is way that we can enjoy our sport and get much better at it. To be sure there are classes for open boats in the Gauley race and the Upper Yough race etc. There is plenty of opportunity for those who want to "go big." I hope to come to the Charlotte races, at least to see my betters shred the gates. Or, maybe....if they have a geezer class......... Chris Kelly
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Craig Smerda
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Yes there is a "geezer" class Chris! That class seems to grow suspicously larger every year.... hmmmmmmmmm? Maybe it has something to do with maturity, skill & confidence, style and grace or the sack full of puppies the winner gets. Hope you can join us!
Craig
PS> All the Cheesheads (Dewey, Roy, Brian, etc.) will likely be there takin' it to the competition. I'm sure they will talk to you about it when they come down to MO-zerri this spring to steal all your medals again!!
Craig
PS> All the Cheesheads (Dewey, Roy, Brian, etc.) will likely be there takin' it to the competition. I'm sure they will talk to you about it when they come down to MO-zerri this spring to steal all your medals again!!
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ChrisKelly
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Remoteproductions
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Ouch
Alan...a little harsh? I'm the first to admit that I suck at running gates. Had I not had to work up until the night before the Missoula race, I would have loved to have come and run the course before race day. Instead, I came to be amongst friends and I competed to show support for the race and the love of the sport. I knew that w/out training the course I was doomed. So I did not paddle my boat that day, instead I took an opportunity to try one of Jacque's Esquiffs (the boat had nothing to do with my placement). I have also never suggested that the comp be held on class IV. A steady class III I think would be a great level to challenge everyone. I'm sorry that you take these comments as personal stabs at you or your Missoula event. If I wanted to take personal stabs, I'd remind you of your Gallatin swim. (That's a joke). I've said it before and I'll say it again. You did a GREAT job and it was a GREAT event.
With that aside, I have learned so much from being at these competitions and I am now running more technical runs because of the challenges that running gates has provided. I still feel that National WHITEWATER SLALOM should focus on the whitewater factor as well as the gates.
Somebody suggested there are Class IV comps out there for OC. I've run some class IV comps, but there are never any other OC's to make a class here in CO or MT.
My business is with promoting outdoor sporting events. Would people have an interest and travel for "The Open Canoe National Boater Cross Championships"? Say....Juneish in Colorado?? Clear Creek
With that aside, I have learned so much from being at these competitions and I am now running more technical runs because of the challenges that running gates has provided. I still feel that National WHITEWATER SLALOM should focus on the whitewater factor as well as the gates.
Somebody suggested there are Class IV comps out there for OC. I've run some class IV comps, but there are never any other OC's to make a class here in CO or MT.
My business is with promoting outdoor sporting events. Would people have an interest and travel for "The Open Canoe National Boater Cross Championships"? Say....Juneish in Colorado?? Clear Creek
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montana c-1
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I for one find that taking simple class two water and putting some gates all around it makes for a fun and challenging event. having the event on class three continiuos water I think may limit some peoples desire to go and participate. when consequences increase so does the sphyincter factor.
I am not much of a slalom boater , I like to do it but suffer from beingin entirely too slow. Bob I would like to know more about these events in Colorado and MOntana you speak of for playboating OC let us know so we can go.
Peace
I am not much of a slalom boater , I like to do it but suffer from beingin entirely too slow. Bob I would like to know more about these events in Colorado and MOntana you speak of for playboating OC let us know so we can go.
Peace
one blade one LOVE
Bob,
I think your idea of an event in Colorado is excellent. I remember the downriver race on Clear Creek in '99 was 4 miles of pretty continuous whitewater. It would be a wild ride in June!
I was having a very bad week and was in a foul mood when I posted my first reply to you. I was harsh in my comments to you and it was out of line. I apologize. You obviously love the sport and have it's best interests at heart. I laughed out loud at you bringing up my Gallatin swim. Good one! Not one of my better days on a river.
I still stand by my position and would ask that you re-read many of the fine points by John K., Pat, John C., Adam, Glenn , Bob P., Craig and Chris. They all articulated my thinking on this subject much better than I ever could. I have thought a great deal about all this the last few days and think there are many possiblities to pursue. I will strive to keep my comments more civilized.
Hope to see you next August (or June?)
Alan[/i]
I think your idea of an event in Colorado is excellent. I remember the downriver race on Clear Creek in '99 was 4 miles of pretty continuous whitewater. It would be a wild ride in June!
I was having a very bad week and was in a foul mood when I posted my first reply to you. I was harsh in my comments to you and it was out of line. I apologize. You obviously love the sport and have it's best interests at heart. I laughed out loud at you bringing up my Gallatin swim. Good one! Not one of my better days on a river.
I still stand by my position and would ask that you re-read many of the fine points by John K., Pat, John C., Adam, Glenn , Bob P., Craig and Chris. They all articulated my thinking on this subject much better than I ever could. I have thought a great deal about all this the last few days and think there are many possiblities to pursue. I will strive to keep my comments more civilized.
Hope to see you next August (or June?)
Alan[/i]