Roll Instruction Tips?

[Sir Adam]

Roll Instruction Tips?
by Scott B.

I'm trying to help two fledgling C-1ers along the path of the higher way, where we are stuck is the roll. [*I* can roll fine, thank you very much, I figure anything that it takes three years to learn one should do well...] Where I am failing these apprentices is not in patience, as I remember the patience of those who mentored me, but in the instruction.

With Lorenzo (names changed to protect the innocent), we are almost there - we got past the "which way do I go when I flip over", worked on "hip snap", and got the paddle motion and finish going. The roll is almost happening; the head is down, the boat almost upright, but not quite... I've got him working on hip snaps on the side of the pool, rocking the boat vigorously on dry land, and riding a bike, all to work on those hip flexors. Any other tips? We've been at this most of the summer and I'd hate to see him end the warm weather season frustrated. Oh, and he is in a Cascade.

Charlotta (again a pseudonym) is just starting at it - a few practiced Eskimo rescues and a briefing on the basic technique (demonstrated, described). We're also working on the outfitting. I'm hoping to have a better plan for success with her. She has a Gyramax.

I'm teaching them the roll as described in Kent Ford's videos, I think the set up is a little simpler than the Bob Foote "Open Canoe Roll" method. Any special words of wisdom? This had been quite an exercise in the appreciation of the difference between being able a thing and being able to teach a thing ...

Scott

ps - expect a review of my new Climax Paddles bent shaft paddle...

Posted on Aug 21, 2002, 7:36 PM

Roll
by Aaron

As my coach taught me to roll you need the hip snap the paddle placement, and keeping the head down. Now with the paddle make sure it is flat to the water, as well you want to try and keep the tee-grip in your belly. As he put it the real reason for your belly button is so you have a place to put tje tee-grip when you flip over.
Aaron

Posted on Aug 21, 2002, 8:32 PM


A few things come to mind
by John O John O

The roll reminds me a lot of a golf swing ( a god-awlful sport in my humble and very biased opinion) because you have to remember at least a dozen things in a fairly precise sequence, all while contorting your body into unnatural positions and shapes. However, if you can find one or two key points of the process to focus on, the rest tends to fall into place naturally. The obvious trick is figuring out those things for each individual. Two things really helped me.
Focusing on keeping my forehead pressed fairly hard to the back of my hand until I was in position to kiss the center of my deck was a real break through for me. Doing this makes a lot of other things happen also (pulling t-grip through, keeping head down, rotating shoulders perp. to boat, etc.) I also think of tucking the boat into my arm-pit to get the hip-action going.
Another thing that really helped my was to lay the paddle out flat on the water to my rolling side, holding only the t-grip. Then I would slowly fall on the paddle and practice pulling the paddle across the boat and snapping the boat back up. As I worked my way down farther and farther, I eventually tried to fall with my forehead (softly)ending up on the back of my hand. It is important to not knock yourself out, or black your eyes, during this drill, simply because it is much too difficult to explain the black eyes during the days to come.
I also used an airbag or a pfd instead of a paddle when I was trying to figure things out.

Good luck!

Be well,

John O.

Posted on Aug 21, 2002, 9:34 PM


Way to go, John O....
by Ric Taylor Ric Taylor

That's a nice rhyme, I think I'll use it in my next song; it's a sequel to my new hit single aimed at the vegetarian market (available in produce sections everywhere) entitled:
You Can Mix Your Peas and Corn, As Long As You Don't Call It "Porn".

But I digress, on to the subject at hand: I agree totally with John O, which is why I'm going to confuse everybody even more with some variations that have worked for me. I agree with Scott about the Bob Foote set up, it's a really good video (I especially like the part where he makes sure you get both shoulders level with the surface and directly over the paddle shaft), but that turning the blade around in the middle, when you're at a 90 degree angle to the boat never worked for me. I use something probably equally as confusing, but it seems to work for both me and my students; first off, when falling into the water to attempt to roll, I have them do so by initiating a low brace from the back of the boat. Start to fall out of the boat on your on side, twist your torso all the way back to the end of the boat and low brace all the way up to the front (and your set up position) as you fall over. If you’re a beginner, This will get you instinctively to attempt a low brace every time you feel the boat tipping over. It just sort of just becomes a part of your reaction, and after a while you can just practice tipping the boat increasingly further over and doing that low brace to bring the boat back up right, thus saving you the effort of having to attempt to roll in the first place. At the front of the boat as I come into the set up position, I just turn the blade over at that point so that I'm gripping it with my top hand sort of underneath the handle like I'm going to punch myself in the stomach, my third knuckle sort of lying right up against my chest. Then when I rotate out, the blade just rotates right into the proper position.
I try to stick my top hand as far down into the water as possible right before I initiate, so that you can pull up with that top hand as much or more than you are pushing down with your bottom hand when you initiate. The top hand initiates much more power than the bottom hand ever will. This also helps the blade stay at the surface when you start your maneuver. Also, I don't think twisting back further than a 90 degree angle to your boat hull is much advantage at all, you'll think that it will give you more power but your body actually "catches" and throws the timing and hip snap off. Once you think about trying to pull your head into the boat, you should also at the same time initiate your offside knee pushing down. This will help bring your head clear over to the offside gunwale as well as pulling the hull level. Also, one final thing, I've never been a fan of hanging onto the edge of anything hard like the edge of a pool, because that hard, firm, completely immovable object can torque your body so badly if you're in the wrong position or doing something wrong. And you're scraping your head on the edge, and one end of the boat can be banging into it, and since it's so stable you can use all kinds of wrong musculature and still get the boat up; I much prefer getting out in the middle of a pool with a foam float or a couple of lifejackets, because they're so much more forgiving if you're doing something wrong.
Sorry, got carried away as usual. I'm sure you're doing fine, Scott, I can tell from your posts that you will be BOTH CONSIDERATE AND ENCOURAGING, and that's the most important thing about teaching, really, to keep them both eager and curious. And it's not like you're trying to teach them anything hard, really, they're only being asked to hang upside down in a completely alien non-life-sustaining environment and then institute about 17 maneuvers correctly in under 2 seconds…. It's hard to see why they're having any problems. I have one student out here, we might be approaching a decade of instruction at this point….., I don't really want to think about it.I now basically teach her for free, in exchange for her promise never to tell anybody that I had anything to do with any aspect of her roll……
Anyway, I hope this helps more than it confuses, and I'm off to practice John O’s tips; that was really a good post, John;
Ric Taylor

Posted on Aug 22, 2002, 2:52 AM


Thanks!
by Scott B.

Thanks for all the tips and comments! I think if I had started trying to teach somebody, anybody, sooner after I learned the roll, I might have been in a better place to explain it. Now I really have to slow down and think about what it is that I am doing, something that has become automatic, so I can describe it - I shudder to think what it is going ot be like teaching the kids to ride a bike...

Aaron - those are the three main points I've focused on, so I feel good about that.

John - that is how I roll. When I was learning, I had a sore that would not heal for a while on the back of my right hand, it was from keeping my forehead (and the edge of my Protec helmet) nailed to the back of that hand... Golf swing? That's good. I've compared it to running up to kick a football (or did I get that from the Kent Ford video?)

Ric - You make some great points, I'll keep that in mind about the pool side. I keep telling them that a roll is just a realllllly deep brace and that they will get better at that too, reducing the need for the roll...

I'm not the most athletic or coordinated person and it took me forever to get it, so I keep telling them - if I could do it, then anybody can.

Scott

Posted on Aug 22, 2002, 3:46 AM

rolling
by Rob W

I always tell beginners to put the t-grip in their gut and their shaft hand ON their forehead and then push down with their head. It's important to get them to link their body with their paddle. The other thing I stress is "once you get your paddle set forget it and switch your focus to your legs,hips and body movements".We spend so much time on set up and paddle placement that beginners quickly become convinced that you roll the boat with the paddle.If the student is having lots of trouble you might have to take their paddle away and give them a kick board or sheet of minicell foam. It's really tough to teach and as you said it's even harder to explain once you've reached the point where it's automatic.The c1 challenge video also shows an instructor supporting the students body while they go through the motions of the hip snap.Just some stuff to try,didn't mean to ramble on so.

Good Luck,
Rob

Posted on Aug 22, 2002, 5:00 AM

Rolling thoughts
by DaveM

Scott, these might sound a little zen, but they work for me when I'm teaching.

1. Tell the student to concentrate on rolling the boat up and then getting in.
2. Most folks bring their torso/head into the hull too soon. Hang out their, flip the boat upright and then swing in or "get in".
3. Try using a kick board as a teaching aid. Use of the kickboard will show if they are coming back into the boat too quickly.

Good luck...DM

Posted on Aug 22, 2002, 5:16 AM


Roll thoughts
by telewhacker telewhacker

Whenever my year old roll reverts to a not-quite roll, it is invariably one of three things.
1: Hip snap, I first learned to roll an open boat and the mantra was pull with your hips until you can see the color of your boat, then think about getting your head back inside the boat. This is my most common mistake. I want to cut the snap short and get on with the breathing.

2: Poor set up. With the shaft on my forhead remember to reach up with the blade (pushing down with the T-handle) until the blade is in the air.
Cutting this step short leaves me with insufficient purchase to complete the roll.

3: Poor finishing position. Nose bumps the cockpit rim on the way into the boat, hands wind up outboard of the boat. Rolls that flop back over, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, stem from not getting my T-handle hand outside of the boat on the left as my nose swings to the outside of the boat on the right. If the T-handle finishes near the center of the boat I seem to pull it back over on myself when I go to extract the blade from the water

At least these are my issues.

Posted on Aug 22, 2002, 12:55 PM

My two cents on rolling
by Randy Randy

I roll a Cascade fairly reliably. I am a novice, so I still remember what made the difference while I was just starting out.

My roll mantra is five steps:

1) Head and hands move to the front of the boat (my setup)
2) Grip hand moves across belly
3) Forehead goes to shaft hand
4) Belly crunch (hip snap)
5) Low brace, move head back to foredeck

Tip of the day: Practice in an eddy or a lake. Pools are bright and cheery compared to dark river water. Being upside down in darker water freaks me out. I relax and slow down more easily if I am accustomed to darker water.

For more detail:

1) Head and hands move to the front of the boat (my setup)

I set up with these three points of contact with my boat:

Helmet to front deck
Shaft hand to the offside gunnel forward
Grip hand to the offside gunnel, near my hip

This is kayak style. Instructions for the canoe roll often imply setting up under the boat. I find that I wind up my hips better if I set up with my hands on the offside gunnel. The main source of failure for me is not winding up my hips. I need to collect energy by arching at my waist, towards my offside.

2) Grip hand moves across belly

This step is one that I made up. I try to retain boat contact with my shaft hand. I move my grip hand only in this step. I move my grip hand across my belly, just under the boat. The grip hand goes past my belly, out towards my onside. My shaft hand lets the paddle pivot, but retains contact with the boat. This hand movement causes my shoulders to rotate as they should.

3) Forehead goes to shaft hand

I let my shaft hand come off the boat, and to my forehead. I reach my head towards the shaft hand until my forehead is on the back of my shaft hand. I try to feel the water resistance on my blade. Hopefully, my blade will be near or on the water's surface.

4) Belly crunch (hip snap)


As soon as I can feel solid resistance to my paddle, I belly crunch. One slow, strong belly compression is what rotates the boat under me. I try to think only of my stomach muscles, so I don't move my head or arms out of position.

5) Low brace, move head back to foredeck

My head stays down, against my paddle shaft. I sweep my head and paddle onto the front deck, at the end of the belly crunch.

That's what works for me.

Randy


a few more
by Kurt

I'm not sure how the heck mine works. I had a semi-reliable one last year, but couldn't roll to save my hide in the pool this winter. Now I have a pretty reliable combat roll, and the annoying thing is I don't know why!
Here's a couple things:
-keep forehead to paddle shaft while starting the process
-then focus on the hips; if I focus on the upper body, I tend to shove on the paddle and sink it
-make sure the paddle blade stays flat
-great way to practice hipsnap is by putting the student boat perpendicular to the instructor. Student hip snaps off instructors bow. Good way to practice eskimo rescues, and you get a feel for using hips not upper body by how much the bow sinks.
-(weird tip)I found I was much more comfortable inverted when I open my eyes.

Posted on Aug 23, 2002, 6:56 AM

one more thing
by Brendan

In addition to all of the above, be sure that the outfitting is tight- I thought I was fairly secure in the boat until I started hanging around other c-boaters, and found that I could afford to really strap myself in and pad for minimum sliding (thanks DaveM) and still get out if I need to. Finally, don't think about it too much and trust the force!

Posted on Aug 23, 2002, 8:35 AM