So much for a dry boat-Zephyr problems!!!!

[bearboater]

after the troubles i have had with canoe manufacturers, im psyched to see the response from the company. instead of wating 6 months for a reply, that only a retailer got, and then 5 more while they didn't tell me they would be in germany. cough (Robson) cough. though they did in the end after 11 months help me resolve the problem as though nothing had happened.

i have certainly found this a great place to vent canoe troubles, especially with the diversity of the audience.

I had a vertige, great boat to learn in, and a fun tripper. now i like to race, so im excited to paddle the spark, and the zephyr, and its sweet that there are devoted companies still working on producing innovative canoes.
cheers
-isaac

[squeakyknee]

Here's the question,should I keep paddling it until something is resolved?or put her up in drydock awaiting an outcome.
Will Esquif be less likely to replace/rebate etc. if the pin holes in question are comung from the wear areas?
These are my real concerns.I like this design alot,and would hate to have to wait months to paddle it again.
I does say something for the company that Jacques would post back on this board personally and quickly.I thank you Sir.
I will keep an open mind at this point and hope that my rant has somehow helped a little.
Angst boater,
Shawn

[Sir Adam]

That, my dear fellow CBoater, is a question you need to go to Bill or Esquif with-only they will know the answer, while all we can give is advice.

I have continued to be impressed with how Esquif is handling this, and think MORE of the company from the way they have dealt with it so far.

So, call Bill, e-mail Esquif, and find out how they wish for you and the others with similar problems to proceed.

[ncdavid]

How fast does it leak? Very, very slowly. It probably isn't fair to call them "leaks", "holes", or even "pinholes". There is no visible hole. It take a long time for water, even under significant pressure, to seep out. If I filled my boat with water, I bet it wouldn't lose 30 ml of water in an hour. Much less would percolate up into the boat during paddling. I'm not concerned with the boat being completely waterproof. My worry is that the 13 or 14 spots in my boat will develop into a larger number as the boat is paddled. Maybe glass and polypropylene don't make a good composite for whitewater boats. If more spots develop and become larger, I worry about how we will repair the boats. It seems that the only way to find the answers to my worries is to keep paddling the boat and occasionally retest for problems. These boats are experimental to a degree. Let's go experiment with 'em. Shawn, I don't think we have too much to worry about if we continue to paddle the boats and more problems develop. Esquif has been upfront in talking about it. If our boats develop big problems, I'm sure that they'll offer refund or replacement.

[Craig Smerda]

The initial post seemed extremely critical and failed to mention that Bill and Jacques where trying to resolve the issues... hence my reply. There is nothing wrong with making others aware of a potential problem or airing a greivance when the time is right and if nothing is being done or a customers problems or complaints are not being acknowledged. This is a completely new material and there will be a few bugs and issues along the way... but knowing the company you are dealing with I can bet issues will be rectified. I know Jacques and I will flat out tell you if there is an issue with Esquif's products he wants to know and will rectify the situation to the best of his abilities. It's good to see that he jumped on the board and posted as well. I've seen many problems from many manufacturers over the years and seldom will you see a reply on a message board about an issue from the guy in charge. I hope the end result is good for everyone!

[Louie]

I know for a fact they are sittin on boats they won't sale cause they are just a little less than perfect. I hope the issues with the Zepher and our responce to them show Jaeque that we as a group we will live with minor problems while Esquif works out the bugs. We're just happy to have a company that will serve our market with new and radical designs, cause we all know that WW canoes ain't the money maker that other types of crafts are. the fact that the owner of Esquif got on here to personally respond speaks volumes. BTW Jaeque ship some frikin Teaurea, we got just enought on the water in the southeast to where a butt load of people want them, and thanks again for comin out with new designs in place of just rehashin some great design from the last mellinium

[ChrisKelly]

it ain't my boat but for my money I'd paddle it. I'd do so for two reasons; 1. to see if any greater damage occurs and 2. to see if it makes any difference.

My problem wud not be several pinholes; it is, as always, the big honking hole in the top of my canoes that I keep getting water in.

I am sorry you have this problem and if it were me I'd be all unhappy, but, like others, I am so dam pleased that Esquif is making technical advances with WW canoes. I am still willing to bet that Twintex will be the WW canoe material of the future.

I am trying to imagine how and why this happened. Do you think it can be that the plastic fails to flow completely around the fiber? Or maybe cracks away from the fiber? Maybe the fiber and the plastic flex at different rates? This last is certainly an issue we all understand from repairing ABS boats with kevlar/glass.

One of the things I really liked about the Zyphyr is its stiffness, more like a glass boat.

I'd be interested to know if these pinholes were there from the getgo or if they developed and if so, after how much and how hard paddling. Chris Kelly

[Craig Smerda]

P.S. Anyone else remember all the initial problems with R-Lite?

[ncdavid]

Chris,
My assumption is that the glass and polypropylene flex differently and that with impact the material develops little microfractures. Filling the boat with water and giving it time, the water seeps along these lines and slowly, slowly some drips out. Again, that is my assumption. I guess you could get some Twintex, make a bowl out of it, whang on with a hammer, and see if gets leaky. Or you could hop in it and throw it down Wilson Creek some more. I'm opting for the latter approach. I'm still hopeful that this is the material of the future. Bill called me today and asked me what kind of resolution I'd like. He said customer satisfaction was Jacques' #1 priority. I considered turning in my boat and asking for my money back or seeking to trade for something else in Esquif's line, but I really like the boat. I'm keeping mine and plan to paddle it hard. I have confidence that Esquif will make things right if the material proves faulty. My hope is that the material proves itself to be the better mousetrap. I know I like the design. I'd happily buy a Royalex version. I think we are just experiencing a little uncertainty with a new material.

Some weeks ago, someone asked me to compare this boat to my other OC1, a Viper 12. I still haven't timed a course with the two boats, but the Zephyr is not much slower, if any. It is more responsive, easier to carve with, has better secondary stability, is drier in waves, and has much higher rubbernecking appeal. I may have a Viper 12 for sale soon.

[riverratrsf]

I'm impressed with David's and Bill's fairness and honesty, I look forward to paddling with you guys. It sounds like Esquif will handle the problems. It's funny Craig should mention R-lite, some people may remember the problems a guy had with a Mohawk Shaman. I have the very boat that was wrote about and I couldn't be happier with it. It's a good boat and I haven't had any problems with it.
Have a blessed day.
Scott

[ChrisKelly]

I plan to do ezactly that this coming Monday. Bring that leaky chunk of Twintex over and boat with me. We'll see if we can make the sucker leak! Chris

[yarnellboat]

Viper 12, eh? Too far.

My favourite part of Esquif making great new boats like the Spark and Zephyr is that it might bump some other boats in my price range onto the used market. No sense hanging onto your old junk now that you've got hot new boats!

P.

[squeakyknee]

The initial post seemed extremely critical and failed to mention that Bill and Jacques where trying to resolve the issues... hence my reply.

All I got out of my initial conversation with Bill is that the boat leaked so I jumped off the phone to go see.
I have talked with Bill many times in the last 2 days,as He with Jacques,and gotten more info on the subject.Things are being resolved as we speak.I wasn't aware that Esquif had been the ones to release this info before my post.obviously my attitude would have been a little different.(not so pissed).After calling Bill back I got the whole scoop.
My initial post WAS based on the info I had at the moment,and a little rage .
I plan to keep paddling it and see what happens.
And yes,I plan to keep buying Esquif.
-Come on and get those Tareaus bumpin,I need a creek boat-
Shawn
P.S. in fairness to everyone,I will erase the initial post.

[Craig Smerda]

It's all good man!

[Steward]

Several frined and I were lucky enough to be able to borrow Mark's demo zephyr for the past 2 weekends to test it. It was one of the first produced and Mark was upfront letting us know that it had pinholes. He also assured me the manufacturing process was fixed.

The boat had many pin hole, and to be honest it was much dryer then my ocoee.

I'd like to put in a unbiased plug in for Esquif and the zephyr. The boat handles great, surf's and spins well and is dry. For those that know Hwy7 runs in Ontario, we ran the Black, Salmon and Beaver Creek. The boat took several strong hits on some of the drops and only had small scratches to show. It exceeded my expectations. This will be my next boat. My only wish is that it was a little more edgy like the Ocoee.

Steward