What are the thoughts regarding C-1 flotation for:
1: Slalom C-1
2: Squirt C-1
I allways spec'd my boats or retrofitted them with full, 3", mini cell walls. That seemed to work pretty good, and did not add a lot of weight. I just received two new slalom boats with thin, 1.2", but stiff, styrofoam walls that I am not willing to rip out.
Thanks for your consideration,
Tom
C-1 flotation
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
I put 4, split stern kayak float bags in my ExtraBat. Cost/weight is well worth protecting my investment. I glued in small chunks of minicell to hold them in place.
My Oxygen I bought used, the original owner had put 4 of the little bow kayak bags in. That is all that will fit, they work just fine. One added benefit is that after some water has seeped in through the sprayskirt waist, it is distributed around and doesn't all collect in the stern which puts you in a permanent stern squirt.
In my opinion, you still need the rigid foam walls though. The float bags prevent any seepage from pooling in one end and in the event of a swim, they float the boat nice and high. Something I found very useful on one recent occasion!
LEW
My Oxygen I bought used, the original owner had put 4 of the little bow kayak bags in. That is all that will fit, they work just fine. One added benefit is that after some water has seeped in through the sprayskirt waist, it is distributed around and doesn't all collect in the stern which puts you in a permanent stern squirt.
In my opinion, you still need the rigid foam walls though. The float bags prevent any seepage from pooling in one end and in the event of a swim, they float the boat nice and high. Something I found very useful on one recent occasion!
LEW
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John Coraor
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Flotation is one of those personal choice issues on which you're going to get a great variance of opinion.
If you're actually racing in those new slalom boats, then you want the boat to be as light as the weight limit allows for maximum performance. Of course, that can be a great way to trash a boat if you ever have a swim, so you need to make sure that your combat roll is as bomber as possible to lessen that possibility.
Some people race in a minimally outfitted boat, but use air bags in the boat under non-race conditions as one compromise. Others can afford both a lightweight race boat and a second slalom boat that they use at other times (e.g. training, river running, etc.), which lessens the concern about trashing your good boat. Sometimes, the second boat is an older race boat that you've paddled for a few years before getting the latest hot boat. If this is the case, you'll often wind up not wanting to do serious gate training in the older boat, because it handles differently, but may be willing to tolerate it for river running.
Keep in mind that if you paddle without airbags or other forms of more substantial flotation, the impact of this decision upon swimming is felt not only by the boat, but also by anyone who tries to rescue you and and your semi-submersible. That being said, I must admit that I haven't paddled with airbags for decades. IMO, one of the reasons to paddle composite boats is their light weight, something that airbags tend to compromise.
Most of my boats (almost all of them slalom designs) have at least full walls out of 2" ethafoam (yes, that's on an "ancient" boat built in 1982), if not 3" minicell. However, I do have 2 boats with lighter styro walls, including the C-1 that I presently paddle. (I don't think that I've ever measured the thickness, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1.5".)
I can also tell you that I've been swimming a lot more of late in that C-1 with styro walls. This has nothing to do with the boat, but everything to do with being the proverbial old, slow, fat guy trying to get back into paddling after more than a decade hiatus (the mind remembers, but the body isn't always willing!). Surprisingly, I haven't noticed any particular difference in how any of these boats handle during a swim that I can correlate to the outfitting. That may be because the difference between 1.5" walls and 3" walls isn't that important once you've filled up the remaining space with water!!
I guess the point of this rambling discussion is that there is no reason why you can't paddle your new boats as presently outfitted. You (and possibly others with whom you paddle) just need to be ready to accept the potential consequences of a swim. However, if these consequences seem daunting, then there are other compromises that you can consider (such as the one suggested by Lew), along with working to make that roll 100%.
John
If you're actually racing in those new slalom boats, then you want the boat to be as light as the weight limit allows for maximum performance. Of course, that can be a great way to trash a boat if you ever have a swim, so you need to make sure that your combat roll is as bomber as possible to lessen that possibility.
Some people race in a minimally outfitted boat, but use air bags in the boat under non-race conditions as one compromise. Others can afford both a lightweight race boat and a second slalom boat that they use at other times (e.g. training, river running, etc.), which lessens the concern about trashing your good boat. Sometimes, the second boat is an older race boat that you've paddled for a few years before getting the latest hot boat. If this is the case, you'll often wind up not wanting to do serious gate training in the older boat, because it handles differently, but may be willing to tolerate it for river running.
Keep in mind that if you paddle without airbags or other forms of more substantial flotation, the impact of this decision upon swimming is felt not only by the boat, but also by anyone who tries to rescue you and and your semi-submersible. That being said, I must admit that I haven't paddled with airbags for decades. IMO, one of the reasons to paddle composite boats is their light weight, something that airbags tend to compromise.
Most of my boats (almost all of them slalom designs) have at least full walls out of 2" ethafoam (yes, that's on an "ancient" boat built in 1982), if not 3" minicell. However, I do have 2 boats with lighter styro walls, including the C-1 that I presently paddle. (I don't think that I've ever measured the thickness, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1.5".)
I can also tell you that I've been swimming a lot more of late in that C-1 with styro walls. This has nothing to do with the boat, but everything to do with being the proverbial old, slow, fat guy trying to get back into paddling after more than a decade hiatus (the mind remembers, but the body isn't always willing!). Surprisingly, I haven't noticed any particular difference in how any of these boats handle during a swim that I can correlate to the outfitting. That may be because the difference between 1.5" walls and 3" walls isn't that important once you've filled up the remaining space with water!!
I guess the point of this rambling discussion is that there is no reason why you can't paddle your new boats as presently outfitted. You (and possibly others with whom you paddle) just need to be ready to accept the potential consequences of a swim. However, if these consequences seem daunting, then there are other compromises that you can consider (such as the one suggested by Lew), along with working to make that roll 100%.
John
I hear'ya John, I am another old fat guy trying to keep up with my sons.... At least with old age I do not embarass as easily.
This topic came up as I was reading another MB where the lack of flotation was being characterized as irresponsible. I can see it for training and rec boating. Racing, no way. So, I am thinking of adding something to my sons' boats for training and rec boating, that can be easily removed on race day. I like LEW's suggestion for the minicell blocks. These newer float bags are not nearly so heavy as the old vinly. Not to expensive either when compared to the cost of a new boat.
This topic came up as I was reading another MB where the lack of flotation was being characterized as irresponsible. I can see it for training and rec boating. Racing, no way. So, I am thinking of adding something to my sons' boats for training and rec boating, that can be easily removed on race day. I like LEW's suggestion for the minicell blocks. These newer float bags are not nearly so heavy as the old vinly. Not to expensive either when compared to the cost of a new boat.
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John Coraor
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 545
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:38 pm
- Location: Long Island, NY
Tom:
Probably a good choice.
I thought that I'd avoided the airbag routine by letting my son paddle rivers in my 23-year old Batmax, which is actually a good fit for him, and buying him a lightweight (though still used) Galasport Jungle for racing. I'm too fat for the Batmax, so I'm not too worried if it gets trashed (plus my son's roll has been very dependable, so far!). However, he's been so enamored of the Jungle that lately I haven't been able to get him back into the Batmax for river running!!
I've rescued enough boats to agree with the observations about the irresponsibility of not enough flotation. However, that never used to be a problem for me as I didn't used to swim!
Obviously, I need to lose 40 lbs. and work harder on my roll or I'm going to have to install airbags myself!! 
John
Probably a good choice.
I thought that I'd avoided the airbag routine by letting my son paddle rivers in my 23-year old Batmax, which is actually a good fit for him, and buying him a lightweight (though still used) Galasport Jungle for racing. I'm too fat for the Batmax, so I'm not too worried if it gets trashed (plus my son's roll has been very dependable, so far!). However, he's been so enamored of the Jungle that lately I haven't been able to get him back into the Batmax for river running!!
I've rescued enough boats to agree with the observations about the irresponsibility of not enough flotation. However, that never used to be a problem for me as I didn't used to swim!
Obviously, I need to lose 40 lbs. and work harder on my roll or I'm going to have to install airbags myself!! John
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bearboater
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- Posts: 743
- Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:22 am
- Location: Phoenix, AZ
tom, you received your new loco?
what do you think?
I remember talking to Dave Kurtz, and his recommendationw as to change the Styrodur supports for softer foam that will bend a little, he said he's known cases where that has actually broken out of the boat, because it does'nt flex with the boat... at all.
cheers
-isaac
what do you think?
I remember talking to Dave Kurtz, and his recommendationw as to change the Styrodur supports for softer foam that will bend a little, he said he's known cases where that has actually broken out of the boat, because it does'nt flex with the boat... at all.
cheers
-isaac
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
Hey Isaac,
I got it! And so far it is a very, very nice. I spec'd my weight at 93 kg so this boat is big, for a slalom boat, yet only 3.63 m long. The cockpit is comparable to a Atom! In fact, my Atom sprayskirt is the only one that will fit!
So, cheer up fat boys! A big,short, Slalom C1 is out there!
I got my pedestal in at 6" of height and set back about 4" off the cockpit.
Initial paddling thoughts are:
1. Tracks amazingly well.
2. Will pivot and track into upstream gates in a very controllable manner.
3. Lots of volume in the bow so I can think about gates instead of having to think about keeping a smaller boat on the surface. This is something only a large slalom paddler will appreaciate.
4. The stern and rails to the stern look more like my sons new Makao than an older Shuback. So, it slices and squirts a very none surprising (read controllable) manner.
5. That Makao is hot! Hot! and did I say HOT! Just watching him on the Feeder Canal he has dramatically cut time from some standard gate configs I have him do to baseline his developemnt. Plus, the boat is gorgeous and he is just plain excited to be in it.
I sent some pics to Sir Adam of the Makao and Loco. I can send to anyone who wants as well.
As far as the Styrodur walls, I am hesitant to pull'em out. I can see the problem Dave describes and I value his opinion..... I do'nt know... I am still thinking this one out.
Did you get your Loco? If you have some information or feedback maybe we should start a thread on it and I will try to get my sons to start one on his Makao. Probably would help anyone in the market. Ought to get Bruce F. to open one on his Vajda Lizard as well.
Myself and two sons will be heading to North Bend, WA and then Chilliwack, BC in July for the Age Group Nationals and JO.
Hope to see you there Isaac.
Tom
I got it! And so far it is a very, very nice. I spec'd my weight at 93 kg so this boat is big, for a slalom boat, yet only 3.63 m long. The cockpit is comparable to a Atom! In fact, my Atom sprayskirt is the only one that will fit!
So, cheer up fat boys! A big,short, Slalom C1 is out there!
I got my pedestal in at 6" of height and set back about 4" off the cockpit.
Initial paddling thoughts are:
1. Tracks amazingly well.
2. Will pivot and track into upstream gates in a very controllable manner.
3. Lots of volume in the bow so I can think about gates instead of having to think about keeping a smaller boat on the surface. This is something only a large slalom paddler will appreaciate.
4. The stern and rails to the stern look more like my sons new Makao than an older Shuback. So, it slices and squirts a very none surprising (read controllable) manner.
5. That Makao is hot! Hot! and did I say HOT! Just watching him on the Feeder Canal he has dramatically cut time from some standard gate configs I have him do to baseline his developemnt. Plus, the boat is gorgeous and he is just plain excited to be in it.
I sent some pics to Sir Adam of the Makao and Loco. I can send to anyone who wants as well.
As far as the Styrodur walls, I am hesitant to pull'em out. I can see the problem Dave describes and I value his opinion..... I do'nt know... I am still thinking this one out.
Did you get your Loco? If you have some information or feedback maybe we should start a thread on it and I will try to get my sons to start one on his Makao. Probably would help anyone in the market. Ought to get Bruce F. to open one on his Vajda Lizard as well.
Myself and two sons will be heading to North Bend, WA and then Chilliwack, BC in July for the Age Group Nationals and JO.
Hope to see you there Isaac.
Tom
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bearboater
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unfortunately I had dave hold my order until about now, so that i can get it when i get back from a canoeing trip my father and i are taking on the kazan river for 34 days. therefore i won't be able to be at the chilliwack race, it's a spectacular course if you haven't seen it, in my opinion the lower the water, the more fun it is. So I will get to see/outfit/paddle mine in august, the 11th to be precise, and i can't wait!! I only wish i had ordered it a while ago, and was still at home, instead of a YMCA camp in minnesota at the moment.
I am so excited to paddle the boat though, I hope it pivots easier than my zealot...
cheers
-isaac
I am so excited to paddle the boat though, I hope it pivots easier than my zealot...
cheers
-isaac
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.