Royalite adhesives?

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:37 pm

Heidi
I would send and e-mail to Jon Kaz at Millbrookboats and ask him the questions you are posting.
The boat is his design. Don't forget that the Spark has a cab forward design - it is based of the Kaz's Ignitor just shorter.

The Spark reallly surfs and also back surfs.

As for your Outrage cracking. Mine was built in 1999 - perhaps the last of the ones built in Vermont. I do not live in a cold area as you but wow - cracking problems at two years.

It almost sounds like some of what you may be doing to the Spark may take away from its wonderful design. The pedestal is placed for the cab forward position - hull design - how it moves through the water.

Check with Kaz.

Heidi · Post by **Heidi** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:31 pm

Thanks Dale, actually I have been in touch with Kaz recently regarding another boat repair project (Mad River Twister acquired after the Spark) and was trying to purchase some Esquif outfitting d-patches, but Kaz is a man of few words and busy until the end of August… somethin’ about boatin’…

Dale, I don't quite follow the logic of how a hanging thwart placed at center trim where the saddle mid-point would otherwise be would mess with the cab forward design. Technically the boat would be paddled the same though a number of subtle dynamics would change. The comment helped me to focus in on my paddling style and the role saddle and hip pads play for me. I can’t see me going for the thwart any time soon, however, given the fact that saddles transfer stress to the area before and under the saddle I think this idea has merit not only in lighter lay ups but for heavier Royalex boats but it would take some getting used to as the hanging thwart would have a whole different feel.

A fellow Spark owner emailed me: confirming that the ABS layer of the Spark is not covered with vinyl on the inside, this was to keep the weight down. Scotch two-part urethane adhesive 3M 3532 used to attach D-ring brackets did not hold for him. Another Spark owner suggested using AB solvent pipe adhesive/cleaner solution, available at hardware stores in plumbing supplies for about $3. each for vinyl applications and contact cement for minicell applications.

According to the NRS website instructions for Stabond recommend MEK as a prep.

Yeah, I’m bummed about the Outrage….possibly the price of boating all winter, tight creeks and as this was my starter boat it has seen its share of rocks. The spider cracks were wider and probably longer after last Sunday’s run on the Dryway. Jim M. (Jim hasn’t met a boat he can’t break) gives the boat another two, three months. Out of curiosity to see what difference it might make, I’m going to fill the cracks with 3M 3532 let that dry and then Vynabond a raft vinyl over them. I better start getting used to a new winter boat. I’m guessing I should not consider paddling the Spark during the NE winter months.

Thanks for all the helpful comments everyone.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:04 pm

Heidi
I am curious. You say that your pedestal if off center in the Spark by a couple inches. Is it from left to right or from bow to stern?
Just very curious. Thanks in advance.

Also wanted to let you know that the Stabond worked great on the vinyl patches. Was able to clean off the old adhesive with MEK and put the old patches back with the Stabond.

It was easier to work with than Vynabond.

I have also been removing the knee pads from my Spark and they have come of easily with the help of plastic spackling knife.
Now I will just clean it up with an electric sander (mouse) and glue in the new knew pad.
Dale

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:28 am

Royalex SUCKS!
HAHAHA

Jim Michaud · Post by **Jim Michaud** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:46 am

As for your Outrage cracking. Mine was built in 1999 - perhaps the last of the ones built in Vermont. I do not live in a cold area as you but wow - cracking problems at two years.

All of my canoes have cracked in front of the saddle in less than one year except for the one that I'm now paddling. The cracks are due mainly to my running a lot of steep creeks and it's the major reason that the canoes are barely one year old when they're worn out. My present canoe is 1 1/2 years old and there's not a single crack in front of my saddle. The following is the reason why.

Before installing my saddle I sew two D-rings (for my thigh straps) to a fairly large section of raft flooring and glue it to the floor with Vynabond. I place it so that it's positioned just in front of the saddle and a few inches under the saddle. This will prevent the floor from cracking when a rock flexes the floor then hits a rigid saddle. Note: I picked up some scrap raft material from the trash can when I visited a raft company in Boise, Idaho.

The next thing that I do is free float my saddle. This will allow the saddle to float over a rock. The problem with that is that the canoe might turn inside out in case of a pin. To counteract that I have the back of my saddle come up to within two inches of the thwart. In case of a pin the saddle will be stopped by the thwart but yet there's enough free play for the saddle to flex over the rocks.

ChrisKelly · Post by **ChrisKelly** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:41 am

Are you saying that you do not glue it in? If so how do it stay in the boat?

Also, How does the raft material inhibit the cracking?

I am not getting how this all works. Chris Kelly

Jim Michaud · Post by **Jim Michaud** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:12 pm

Are you saying that you do not glue it in? If so how do it stay in the boat?

I DO glue the saddle to the floor. By the term free floating I meant that the top of the saddle is not attached to anything.

Also, How does the raft material inhibit the cracking?

The inside layer of Royalex is just a thin vinyl covering which is there primarily to keep UV radiation from harming the ABS layer. The vinyl layer has no strength so it allows the ABS layer to crack when stressed. The raft material has lots of strength so it prevents the ABS from cracking.

Note: All of the factory D-ring patches that I've seen seem to be made from the same type of raft material so I've been making all of my own D-ring patches and other tie-downs.

Jim M

ChrisKelly · Post by **ChrisKelly** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:55 pm

I am impressed that you are able to get a great, huge piece of the raft flooring well glued in. I have enough trouble with a teeny d-ring patch. I'd have 56 bubbles. Chris

Jim P · Post by **Jim P** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:14 pm

you close the refridgerator door? So if the inside of the hull is covered do you really know the the ABS has not cracked? Or just that the new top/inside layer or raft material has not cracked?

ChrisKelly · Post by **ChrisKelly** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:49 pm

KEWLLL!!!! (so to speak)

Jim Michaud · Post by **Jim Michaud** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:27 am

I am impressed that you are able to get a great, huge piece of the raft flooring well glued in. I have enough trouble with a teeny d-ring patch. I'd have 56 bubbles. Chris

If I get a bubble I cut a small slit in the bubble with a razor blade or a sharp knife then press down the bubble with a wallpaper seam roller.

I've also found that D-rings held in place with hard plastic will sometime cause the ABS to crack so I don't use them any more.

Jim M

C-Forum

Royalite adhesives?

Roylite Adhesive

Rolalite Adhesive

Jim, what do you mean when you say "freefloat my saddl

Thanks, I get it now.

but the real question is does the light go out when

You have a frig in your boat?????