HI LOOKIN FOR ADVICE
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
HI LOOKIN FOR ADVICE
hi im a kayaker and im interested in doin a bit of freestyle c1 just wonderin where the best place to start is
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bearboater
- CBoats Addict
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- Location: Phoenix, AZ
concur...
Where are you located... most C-boaters are more than willing to let a K-er give it a go via a loaner and tips.
Just be afraid, very afraid...once you drink the Kool-aid you might just become one of us!
Enjoy and let us know how it goes! Paul C.
Just be afraid, very afraid...once you drink the Kool-aid you might just become one of us!
Enjoy and let us know how it goes! Paul C.
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Pool sessions - get the roll down.. you can actually do a C-to-C roll with half a paddle for easy starters... then get the real c1 roll down...
C-boaters tend to swim more than yakkers...maybe we're more chicken? It's a little tougher to get up in a c1 IMO than a kayak, and might be discouraging for someone who's not used to swimming so much..
Ok not ALL of us swim more than yakkers, i certainly do.
Mike.
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GM FOODS
C-boaters tend to swim more than yakkers...maybe we're more chicken? It's a little tougher to get up in a c1 IMO than a kayak, and might be discouraging for someone who's not used to swimming so much..
Ok not ALL of us swim more than yakkers, i certainly do.
Mike.
________
GM FOODS
Last edited by msims on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sdbrassfield
- Supporting Paddler
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- Location: Flatwater, North Carolina
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
Rolling - I disagree
Hiya
I disagree about the C1 roll - I actually think it is faster and easier than in a K1. You have a lot more leverage with the paddle, but because you are higher, it is more important than in a kayak to sweep your body low across the front deck to finish the roll.
Cheers,
Matt
I disagree about the C1 roll - I actually think it is faster and easier than in a K1. You have a lot more leverage with the paddle, but because you are higher, it is more important than in a kayak to sweep your body low across the front deck to finish the roll.
Cheers,
Matt
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Maybe I should actually try kayaking and find out for myself!
...ok, thought about it... nope.
Matt, I'm talkin about the roll where you end up on your back deck, that's not C to C? Yeah it's fast, but you end up stern squirting so much unless you have got good volume in your c1 stern... no?
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VAAAPP VAPORIZER
...ok, thought about it... nope.
Matt, I'm talkin about the roll where you end up on your back deck, that's not C to C? Yeah it's fast, but you end up stern squirting so much unless you have got good volume in your c1 stern... no?
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VAAAPP VAPORIZER
Last edited by msims on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
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- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
Roll types
Hiya
The C-to-C roll is very similar to my C1 roll during the hipsnap phase, but is a high brace roll rather than a low brace roll. C-to-C is the classic kayak roll with the paddle at 90deg from the boat and stationary. The sweep roll starts with the paddle at 90deg and it moves forward as the roll progresses. That's probably actually the direct comparison to my c-boat roll.
The back-deck roll is where you flip towards your offside and bend your body around in a looping motion backwards and roll up on your onside. It's very fast and is useful (I'm told) when cartwheeling, but it also exposes your face a lot more.
A lot of kayakers do not roll leaning forward on their front decks, but instead roll on there back decks - for some people this is flexibility limited, but a lot of others juts never learn to do it (properly). Fine if you're paddling the Ottawa - not so cool creeking. I've taken too many body shots to want my face anywhere other than pressed against my front deck, when possible. This was true back when I kayaked and still true now in C1 and OC1 - I'm very careful about when I choose to roll the OC because it feels so exposed to me.
Does this help?
Cheers,
Matt
PS. This is my interpretation . I fully expect otehrs to disagree. I know a lot of people consider any roll that gets you up fast is the right roll, and a lot of people will not insist on the forward lean when teaching, since it is harder to learn, but there's a reason we teach it....
The C-to-C roll is very similar to my C1 roll during the hipsnap phase, but is a high brace roll rather than a low brace roll. C-to-C is the classic kayak roll with the paddle at 90deg from the boat and stationary. The sweep roll starts with the paddle at 90deg and it moves forward as the roll progresses. That's probably actually the direct comparison to my c-boat roll.
The back-deck roll is where you flip towards your offside and bend your body around in a looping motion backwards and roll up on your onside. It's very fast and is useful (I'm told) when cartwheeling, but it also exposes your face a lot more.
A lot of kayakers do not roll leaning forward on their front decks, but instead roll on there back decks - for some people this is flexibility limited, but a lot of others juts never learn to do it (properly). Fine if you're paddling the Ottawa - not so cool creeking. I've taken too many body shots to want my face anywhere other than pressed against my front deck, when possible. This was true back when I kayaked and still true now in C1 and OC1 - I'm very careful about when I choose to roll the OC because it feels so exposed to me.
Does this help?
Cheers,
Matt
PS. This is my interpretation . I fully expect otehrs to disagree. I know a lot of people consider any roll that gets you up fast is the right roll, and a lot of people will not insist on the forward lean when teaching, since it is harder to learn, but there's a reason we teach it....
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
I think every body is a little bit right with their statements.
Yes you have better leverage and strenght with the OC roll but also a bigger boat to flip...and it's sitting higher in the water when upside down, then a smaller boat.
I actually find my bigger(Canyon with end floatation only) boat easier to roll when it's full then my smaller boats with tons of floatation. Because you're sitting deeper in the water and even though it's very heavy you don't have to climb back as high to bring it back up.
NZ Matt, if you want enough CBoats on your new rivers, come and play with us at the Gatineau Festival each year, end of August. You'll find close to 400 of us Québec open boaters on this magnificient CL IV run on a same day
Quite a Scene !
I think Paul Mason and Marc Scriver are mostly responsible for this local trend
Tks guys !
Yes you have better leverage and strenght with the OC roll but also a bigger boat to flip...and it's sitting higher in the water when upside down, then a smaller boat.
I actually find my bigger(Canyon with end floatation only) boat easier to roll when it's full then my smaller boats with tons of floatation. Because you're sitting deeper in the water and even though it's very heavy you don't have to climb back as high to bring it back up.
NZ Matt, if you want enough CBoats on your new rivers, come and play with us at the Gatineau Festival each year, end of August. You'll find close to 400 of us Québec open boaters on this magnificient CL IV run on a same day
Quite a Scene !I think Paul Mason and Marc Scriver are mostly responsible for this local trend
Tks guys !-
John Coraor
- CBoats Addict
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NZMatt: Actually the classic sweep roll (at one time called the screw roll) in K-1 starts with the paddle shaft held alongside the kayak parallel to the boat, not at 90 degrees. The active blade is the one near the bow, which is pulled along the surface of the water at a climbing angle from bow to stern in a big arc, much like the sweep stroke, hence its name. At the same time as the blade travels this arc, the paddler is rolling the boat up with his/her hips, finishing the stroke leaning back on the back deck.
This was THE "kayak roll" described in the AMC Whitewater Handbook back in the 60s and early 70s. Later in the late 70s & 80s, some people began to adopt a "high brace roll" instead of a screw/sweep roll, feeling that it was quicker to execute and didn't leave the paddler's face exposed like the sweep roll (i.e. when you finish the sweep roll leaning on the back deck). The "high brace roll" of that period seems to be what paddlers now call the C to C roll.
As you point out, you can do a back deck roll, and can probably also roll moving the paddle forward from 90 degrees; there are probably many other variations as well. However, the roll you describe is NOT the classic sweep roll. I know this for sure because I'm old enough to have learned to roll back when the sweep roll was the only roll that people learned and the only one referenced in paddling literature.
As to whether C-1 or K-1 rolls are easier, probably most important is which boat you primarily paddle (and roll) and to some extent which of the different types of rolls you use (e.g. IMO: It is easier to screw up the blade angle on a K-1 sweep roll than on a C-1 low brace roll, but, if both are executed correctly, the K-1 sweep roll requires less effort; if you want to really experience an "effortless" roll, shift your grip on your kayak paddle till you are grasping the tip of the inactive blade with your trailing hand and do a "Pawlata [extended paddle] roll." It amazing what the additional leverage will do for you!).
John
This was THE "kayak roll" described in the AMC Whitewater Handbook back in the 60s and early 70s. Later in the late 70s & 80s, some people began to adopt a "high brace roll" instead of a screw/sweep roll, feeling that it was quicker to execute and didn't leave the paddler's face exposed like the sweep roll (i.e. when you finish the sweep roll leaning on the back deck). The "high brace roll" of that period seems to be what paddlers now call the C to C roll.
As you point out, you can do a back deck roll, and can probably also roll moving the paddle forward from 90 degrees; there are probably many other variations as well. However, the roll you describe is NOT the classic sweep roll. I know this for sure because I'm old enough to have learned to roll back when the sweep roll was the only roll that people learned and the only one referenced in paddling literature.
As to whether C-1 or K-1 rolls are easier, probably most important is which boat you primarily paddle (and roll) and to some extent which of the different types of rolls you use (e.g. IMO: It is easier to screw up the blade angle on a K-1 sweep roll than on a C-1 low brace roll, but, if both are executed correctly, the K-1 sweep roll requires less effort; if you want to really experience an "effortless" roll, shift your grip on your kayak paddle till you are grasping the tip of the inactive blade with your trailing hand and do a "Pawlata [extended paddle] roll." It amazing what the additional leverage will do for you!).
John
em I live in ireland and dont know any c1ers cus it isnt popular here ive never seen one and der wer no c1ers at da irish team trials for the freestyle worlds so if any of you have irish granparents you should send them an email and you might get to go to the worlds.so any other suggestions on tryin it out.im able to hand roll screw reverse screw and many other rolls. i was thinkin about convertin an old slalom boat i have out the back and usin an old paddle i have lyin around da is missin a blade and goin out for for a test run
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billcanoes
- CBoats Addict
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- Location: Charlotte, NC
trying c1
well this is in the UK but www.totneskayaks.co.uk
if you click on boats there is a green wheelboy on the right side
I think there are also one or two Siths in the uk too
do you have a link to rivers in Ireland- I'd love to check them out
I've been wanting to go there for 13 years- money is the only thing holding me back
Bill
if you click on boats there is a green wheelboy on the right side
I think there are also one or two Siths in the uk too
do you have a link to rivers in Ireland- I'd love to check them out
I've been wanting to go there for 13 years- money is the only thing holding me back
Bill
em theres gona be a new website sooon called www.irishwhitewater.com but its not finished yet.irishfreestyle.com will probally be your best bet for now.let me know when your comin over we can hook up and do some paddlin