C1 squirt boat question

[michielv]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie here so I'll introduce myself: My name is Michiel Verhoef, age 36 and I've been paddling for the past 23 years or so. Mostly kayak polo and the occaisional white water. Since I retired from playing polo nearly every weekend I sort of switched to some kayaksurfing and a bit of freestyling (flatwater as I live in Holland and don't get to rivers that much anymore. Not until my little kid (almost 2 years old) is getting a bit older anyway).

As I am a fairly tall guy (6'4") who wants to paddle short boats too I am switching to C-1 playboating (I figure this can't hurt more than having my feet cramped in a small boat). So far so good .

Anyway, here's my real question: a mate of mine is selling a Valley squirt kayak in good condition for cheaps (100 euro's, about 75 GBP/120 USD or something?) and I am wondering if a squirt kayak would make a nice conversion to a C-1 squirt? Or do I need a special extra wide design or something? I am a C-1 beginner but have a nice bit of quiet flatwater in my neighbourhood to practice on.

Based on the photos on your website the C1 Squirt Revolution website (http://www.c1squirt.co.uk/) I'd say it should be possible but I am not sure.

Thanks in advance for any information you can give me.

Cheers,

Michiel

[Sir Adam]

You would need to do a lot of work on it...the "balance point" on a squirt boat is much more dialed in than in a playboat (and needs to be, if you're contemplating downtime (mystery moves)). Because of kayakers legs being in front of them, versus our legs under us, you'd have to move your body FORWARD a bit...which will effect other dynamics of the boat, and may require redoing the cockpit rim.

The width may not be the best either, depending on the boat, it's hull shape, and your level of comfort in narrow boats.

If you are in Holland, what I would do, undoubtably, is track down a Valley (now downtime I believe) Meltdown. I've never paddled one personally, but talking to folks that have it is a great squirtboat (yes, it originally started as a Kayak but was tweaked...). I've talked with the new builders over there, and they seem like great folks (I tried ordering one a few years ago under the previous owners and never got anywhere...these folks called me back on their dime overseas, and we're happy just to chat about the boat and what they're doing even though I told them a new boat wasn't in the cards right now (it is amazing how much house additions delete boat funds:( )
The designer appears here occasionally, in case Steve wants to chime in....


If you happen to get to Switzerland for some odd reason PM NZ Matt from this board - he has a sweet Acrobat, access to a couple of places you can get at least waist deep (hey, if I can do it...), and once it's seemed up the lowest cut Maven in existence (and I can't wait to hear about how it works for him ...NZ Matt is one of the best paddlers I know, and is well versed in a variety of designs...and I suspect he will find it a challenge, albeit a fun one).


Regardless, welcome and have fun:)

[michielv]

Hi,

Thanks, so I guess it would be best to stick to my playboat (a Fluid Flirt I'm going to convert to C-1) at first then?

Luckily I can have some instruction in a pool from an experienced C-1 playboater from next week on and he agreed to help me outfit the boat first (which means this week )

Too bad that squirt boating never took off in Holland (understandably as there's not a decent white water river nearby) so it will be very hard to find a Meltdown but who knows, I might get lucky.

Thanks for the comments.

Cheers,

Michiel

[KNeal]

I talked with a couple of paddling buddies who were kyack squirting that day on the James River (about class 3+, class 4- rapids). They were going to make a quick run down then go boat in their short plastic boats later and take their time. They mentioned their squirt boats needed to keep moving down the river, that they could not be sitting still or risk flipping over a whole lot. Sitting in eddies was not a good idea either. They were paddling Projets, which have a fairly round bottom, to qualify why they needed to keep moving.

To reinforce and add onto what "Sir" Adam said, those boats have a more narrow width, hull shape, and balance point (kyackers sit in the front-half of the boat), different from a dedicated c-1 squirt boat. After saying all that, if you can kneel inside the boat (doubtful) and can easily pay the price for the boat--Why not get it and try it? You better make sure you can get out of the boat safely before you pop on a skirt. Keep it fun, keep it safe.

Where in Holland do you live? I'm not too familiar with the whole country, but I got to stay at a family's house in Oostvoorne many years ago and also visited Amsterdam, and ported at Rotterdam when I was in the Navy. Really loved the country. Well worth visiting again. Also, if you do get to paddle with NZMatt, be aware that his Acrobat is VERY low volume. At my 180+ lb. (84+ kg.), the boat was a TRUE mystery machine (could barely maintain neutral bouyancy). I had to get in his boat while on the pool deck, then body roll into the pool to keep water out if it!

Welcome to our site and congratulations on taking up cboating. Looking forward to hearing more about your experiences.

KNeal (Neal Fleenor)

P.S. I got a babysitter this afternoon, so gonna go boat the James River with Brendan and Bob ("B" & "B" of the "orange B-17"/Ford pickup legacy from several Armadas ago).

[PAC]

Hey Michiel
Nice to hear of your interest in squirtology. I’ll have to agree with Adam and Kneal as to their comments on squirt theory and boat implementation. Expect for the sitting still thing – this is where master’s have the Zen between edge control, blade placement and tummy muscles. A master can stay stationary in even the craziest water and make us neophytes look like incompetent fools. But I digress (but as a neophyte I’ll have to sort of agree! LOL)…

As stated a narrow boat (as most K’s are) will apply stress on your learning curve. The cockpit will be mis-placed for C use (pivot point), boat narrowness and cockpit design, coupled with the non-planing hull all lead to an extremely twitchy experience. Add to that the cut (boat’s buoyancy that Kneal touched on) and you have a bit of a fear factor going even in a swimming pool. You can cut and modify a K into a C – I will be slowly implementing this process this winter myself - but the process is not easy and requires a LOT of work and rework!!

A suggestion would, lord forgive my sin here, take the boat out as a K and try to figure out the charc. But first make sure you can get your dogs (feet and legs) in the sucker (not to mention getting out of the boat as well). If the boat is uncomfortable well that is sort of the way K squirts are - of of the nice things about C squirts is the comfort factor! As you figure the boat out you can determine if it would be worth transforming into a C, if you want to C-quirt, or sell it to fund a true C. But it will provide a taste as the experience and boating any boat beats not boating at all. Also get a copy of Jim Snyder’s Squirt Boating and Beyond – I think it’s a must for even non-squirt boaters, K and C a like, since discusses history and moves from the master’s perspective (even thought its in a K perspective). Let us know if you need help tracking a copy down.

Keep us posted as to how it goes and keep thinking C! Oh and welcome to the community!

Paul C.

[Mike W.]

The width may not be the best either

HA HA HA HA HA HEE HEE HEE HEE This from the designer of the Maven?

Michiel, first I'd see if I could kneel in the 'yak at all. If you can do that, get in shallow water & see if you can kneel in it where it will trim out where you want it. You're pretty tall, so that may be a problem. If you can get in it & get it trimmed properly, I'd say go for it.

The cool thing about C-1 squirting is that I don't flip as much. When things get hairy just stuff an end under. They always seem more stable on end than they do flat.

Squirt boats are great in flatwater. My Acrobat is my go to boat when the river here is too high to have rapids.

Let us know when you can do "the test"...I still can't

[michielv]

Hi all,

@PAC: I already have a copy of the Squirt Book. I found it really inspiring and a lot of fun to read. Tha's what triggered my interest in squirt boating in the first place.

One of the main reasons I wanted to see whether it would be a good idea (or not at all) to convert the squirt kayak to a c-boat was because it was built for people with a max height of about 6 '. It's a composite boat anyway so in case of emergency I can always add some footbumps myself (Kayakpolo has the advantage that you have to learn to fix composite boats as well ).

@KNeal I live just below Rotterdam in a small town called Barendrecht (which is basically turning into a Rotterdam suburb because they are building lots of houses these days). As for the Acrobat: I weigh about 82 kilo's (Summer weight, right now after Christmas it's more like 85 ) so I'm afraid it would be a mystery machine for me as well. Then again, that is supposedly a lot of fun.

@Mike W.: Sounds like some good advice. I am trying to talk the current owner into bringing the boat to a pool clinic early February so I can test it in warm conditions.

Cheers,

Michiel

[Sir Adam]

Re: width - MikeW - when i say the width may be an issue, you KNOW I'm serious, eh?

The Maven was designed to be what it is...fast and twitchy, for lighter folks.

Tis what it tis. PAC's suggestion of wider knees DOES make a big difference with the boat, thankfully...now I have hope someone else might want one too

Good luck either way...and trying it as a K is not a bad idea...IF you can get in to it:) Retrofitting it is possible, just be aware you may or may not have a boat you are comfortable in when you're done...of course, some squirt boats <ahem...Oxygen, Maven...original Edge> probably fall in to that category as well....

[michielv]

Hi all,

I just heard that it is a Shred by Valley. As it is I haven't actually seen the boat yet, it's in storage and I haven't found time yet to chekc it out. Will do so soon as I really am intrigued by it.

I'll keep everyone posted about the outcome.

Cheers,

Michiel

[KNeal]

Got a couple of links on the Shred.

http://www.customkayak.com/html/shred.html
http://www.angstkayak.com/otherboats/shred/index.html

Yeehaw! Michiel, make sure your knees and feet can fit in the boat and you can get out. As long as you can do that, why not? It's probably no skinnier than Adam's "Maven".

Kinda makes me think of NZ Matt's mastercut Acrobat.

KNeal

[PAC]

I concur with KNeal!

Just try to get those knees out as wide as you can. I'm going to bet that the spray skirt will work as it too - just be ready to be down in it and tight (low saddle). As others noted you'll have to tweak where your center line is in relation to the boat so don't glue in the parts until your sure (pool session will help there). If need be you can shim the rear deck behind the cockpit a tad with minicell to get your feet in it - and that should not impact performance much, if at all.

Overall I think it would be a good project and first boat.

Note: Your feet and ankles are going to HATE you at first but l;ightly pad out around them and keep the faith and you'll be okay! Hey there is a reason we're called "pain boaters"!

Again an additional thought is if you can fit in it as a K play with it like that first. Then you can start to figure the boat out for C-ing.

Good luck and keep us posted. Paul C.