Last Gasp for Plastic C1 Designs?

[billcanoes]

I hope manufacturers continue to invest in the c1 market

I know a lot of people bought wheelboys and wanted finkemeisters or fatboys specefically to support the companies who support c1ers.

I thought Noah made a c1 (simillar to the America) no idea of the model
which would make exactly 10* I think there were only 3 plastic Grooves made by Riot.


But I would love to see another c1 creeker design-IN PRODUCTION- hopefully more accessable than the finkenmeister-

[RodeoClown]

Frankly, I don't think c-boating is that much harder than kayaking. I know some very good C-boaters who can't kayak worth a darn. I think it's more what you're used to. I think it is harder to maintain speed in a straight line- which is part of the reason for sticking with longer boats.

As someone who also kayaks, and does so more than I c-1, there are a lot of kayaks that I have no interest in paddling- more than there are kayaks I would paddle. I'm not going to paddle a boat that I'm 50lbs too heavy or light for, or a boat that's not the type of boat I'm interested in, or just doesn't fit my paddling style, or is a just plain bad design.

Now if someone ACTUALLY wanted to build a plastic c-1, what would it be? The same issues apply- what size, shape, paddling style, etc. Chances are, a lot of the C-boats out there aren't going to want one no matter what you build. And then there's always the chance it's gonna be a dog.

Like Adam said, if you can't find what you want, build it! I just took my new OC-1 freestyle boat out for the first time, and it's AWESOME. I'll post some pics tomorrow...

Oh, and Dane kicked my butt at all three of the World Cup events last fall...I hope he keeps doing it (paddling c-1, not kicking my butt) so we don't have to scrounge up enough paddlers to have a c-1 class at the rodeos

Jeremy

[Sir Adam]

Hmmm..lets see if I can put these in chronological order:

1) Perception Sage
2) Hydra Centaur
3) Peception Gyra max
4) Dagger Cascade
5) Perception Slasher
6) Dagger Atom
7) Robson Finkenmeister
Drakkar Wheelboy

I've heard rumor of the plastic C1 from Noah, but all of them have turned out to be factory conversion. If anyone has info otherwise, please let me know!

You'll notice the above are actually grouped into 3 time periods or so - the first plastic C1 (Sage), then competing boats a few years later (Gyra max and Centaur), then a break of a few years, and new competitors (Cascade and Slasher), followed by a single boat (Atom), then no new boats for another 5 years or so, and then the Fink and Wheelboy.

So, I figure another new design will appear in 5 years:)

Until then, check out glass. Seriously. Go to the "See Boats" section in the upper left, choose "C1", and you will see MANY C1 designs there..not just the 8 plastic ones that have existed.

[ezwater]

If you really want to "rodeo" and spin in or on waves and holes, 7 foot boats must make it much easier. I'm more interested in moving around the river and cruising. Right now, there is as much a shortage of snappy handling cruising kayaks as there is of c-1s. If I wanted to do a conversion, I would not know where to start. I could convert a Prijon Athlete, but it doesn't carry avoirdupois and scarcely has room for lunch. Otherwise, I could order a glass Atom. I'm sure it would outhandle my Wide Ride, and would be roomier than my Zealot. For kayaking, none of the longer poly kayaks are flat enough or have enough chine to offer sharp handling.

If someone were to offer some really sharp-handling, fast cruiser, not half-fast 8.5 foot boats, maybe it would reawaken interest in what I might call long-wave boat communication. Right now, everyone has gone short-wave.

[michielv]

Markus Maas, a German guy and very good C-1 paddler, has a company where he sells converted kayaks. He also has developed a C-1 seat that is available separately.

I guess this is another way to go, sort of in between getting a boat designed as C-1 and convert-it-yourself of a kayak. The boats you get from Markus are definitely C-1s and cannot be converted back to K-1 without filling holes etc.

Granted, you're still paddling a converted kayak but then again, it is relatively easy to get a true C-1 converted by a pro that is still a recent design. The good thing is that you can get a new, modern C-1 for the same price as it would costs to buy the K-1 version (I guess Markus buys an empy shell and outfits that. Saves him also the trouble of getting rid of numerous seats and thighbraces )

At least Markus knows diddley about what type of boat does what well etc. so someone like Ezwater might get some good advice.

Just a thought or a good business opportunity for someone

[Sir Adam]

I've been pondering this post a bit, and realized that for some of you new designs ARE out there...

Jeremy - what about a Pagan cut to your weight? I don't know exactly what you're aiming to do in boats these days, but if it's wave and hole play this might be the ticket...and customized to your weight. The Shaggy site has all the info (link under "Paddling links"

Ezwater - how about an Amoeba (look under See Boats, or click on the Millbrook at at the top...)?


I agree wholeheartedly that if you're looking for a creek boat your best bet is plastic....for the price it can certainly be abused more.

Otherwise, glass may SO be the way for a lot of us to go - cutting edge boats for exactly our weight and size (vs having to look around between different manufacturers for the right shape, then size boat for you...and try and convert it...).

[RodeoClown]

The Pagan looks cool. But the reality of it is I've got a kayak sponsor, so I guess I'm "stuck" paddling conversions. It's rough, i know...

Actually, one of the things I've been getting into lately is OC-1 freestyle. Now if you want limited selection on boats..... There are boats like the Salsa and CUFly, which are pretty cool but in my opinion they have major issues. Mainly that once you get water in them, the ends are under water, and you really can't paddle them back up the eddy. Or down river.

So I built my own boat. After paddling it for the first time yesterday, I've got to say it's awesome. There's no doubt in my mind that I could paddle it downriver too. I'll try and get some pictures of it today, but here's a teaser:


wait, this thread is supposed to be about plastic c-1's not OC-1's. I actually never really counted how many plastic c-1's there were. I didn't really there were so few. It's kind of hard to say it's the last gasp when it's hardly ever been breathing to begin with...

[Craig Smerda]

<gasp>"Jeremey...You call THAT a canoe!?!?" <laughs>

[PAC]

Jeremey
Will you and your design be at the Stonycreek Rendezvous?
I'd like to check it out! It looks "interesting"!
Paul C.

[RodeoClown]

Craig, it's more of a canoe than the Salsa Hey, it's got airbags, a saddle, and wood gunnels, what else could it be?

Paul, I'm probably not going to make it to Stoneycreek this year- I think it's the weekend before worlds starts, and I'll be surfing buseater in preparation for that....

Jeremy

[RodeoClown]

Rather than continuing to hijack this thread, I've started another thread for discussion of this "so-called" "canoe"

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=5634

[boatbuster]

I am primarilly an OC1 boater so I don't have a lot of input on the plastic C1 situation except to say I wish some company would at least try to put one out on the market. I had hopes for Liquidlogic since they were at one point working on an easy conversion kit for their kayaks, but that is not the same as designing a boat to be a C1.

Glad to hear open boats are making a modest comeback in some areas. Single blade will always be tougher so maybe that should be our marketing angle

[Bruce Farrenkopf]

The C1 market has been 'gasping' for as long as I've been paddling (25 years plus).

There have been better years in the USA than present circumstances, particularly when glass boats were more popular in the late 80's and early 90's and Lugbill and Hearn were blitzing the racing circuit.

The C1er in this country has always had to be resourceful and persistent to get the boat he needs. Reviewing CBoats.net shows a bunch of clever dudes. I suppose a little adversity is making us tougher and smarter .

I have been pushing for C1 designs in plastic because I have had some bad experiences converting kayaks. Choosing the wrong kayaks to convert has resulted in serious deterioration in my boating performance in the past . I know I am not alone here. It is true that mediocre C1 designs exist. However I doubt a marginal C1 design can match the misery of a mediocre kayak converted to a bad C1.

Let's not give up on trying to promote and support the gutsy company that introduces a good C1 design in plastic. Most C1ers really appreciate the efforts of Dagger, Robson and most recently Drakkar. Supporting these efforts helps breath life into plastic C1 design and contributes to better and safer C-boating in the long term.

SYOTR,

Bruce

[the great gonzo]

I still hope somehow that the Fatboy will someday hit the market, although I don't really count on it any more. In the meantime the Finkenmeister works fine for me as far as creeking is concerned. It's not a perfect boat, but for me it works better than any of the conversions I have tried so far.
As far as short playboats are concerned, give the Shaggy Pagan a try! It's not pölastic, but composite, which in my opinion, is a definite advantage. Incredibly light (~20 lbs, including saddle and kneeblock, just add thigh straps and and fitting foam to fit you), and very stiff. And it performs! I demoed one for for a few days and ordered one, I just got word that the boat is finished! Can't wait to get the thigh straps in and to get it on the water !

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[Joey]

here are my thoughts on the whole thing (not that anyone really cares).

as people have stated already, most c-1ers are not trying to find a truely agressive freestyle boat. the majority of paddlers seem to want a play friendly river runner. so drakkar produced the wheel boy. as much as it sucks, few people want to shell out the cash for a 7 foot long play boat when they can pay half the price for a kayak that was designed 2 years prior. its basically the same thing that has happened to open boating. you can only make so many changes to a 10 foot boat before you run out of ideas. there really havent been any great break throughs with open boats for a good while.

as for the really agressive boats, there are a million kayaks out there that already fit the bill. most of them are easy to convert, wide, and perform WAY BETTER on a feature than any c-1 design. its hard for the average mortal to get any air out of a slicy 7 foot boat. they just dont have any pop. it would be great if a new design was to come along that would push the envelope for c-1 design. i just dont feel there is a market for the boat, or enough c-1ers with the know how to really push such a design.

as for creek boats, i think there is a lot of room for exploration. in my opinion there has never been a c-1 creeker that was worth a dam. most people are converting kayaks because the boats are so much more responsive, and there is a better selection. some people want displacement hull some want planning. others like short low flow boats, while others like longer big volume boats. since there is really only one c-1 creeker out there, its hard to please any one of theses groups, let alone the entire comunity. again, are there really enough c-1 creeker out there to float the market? prolly not.

i think some folks here have made some really good suggestions with making a fiber glass molds. you cant produce as many boats befor the mold breaks, but there arent many of us out there.

also, why the hades hasnt someone come out with a QUALITY conversion saddle for the market. seriosly!!!! half the reason more people dont start c-1ing is becuase they have no clue how to convert one. i think we all have spent WAY to much time trying to figure out way to convert out boats. i cant be that hard to produce a c-1 pedistal.

joey