Can someone tell me where I might get a hold of some kevlar cloth for my Ocoee? Or ABS for that matter? Thanks.
-Warren
kevlar cloth (or ABS)
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
-
Space Canoe
- C Guru
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:20 am
- Location: Los Angeles
WELL,
It’s been awhile, but
http://www.fibreglast.com/
and
http://www.johnrsweet.com/
would be be a good place to start.
It used to be that it was really hard to get small pieces of ABS because they only sold big sheets. Are you near any big towns? Usually there’s a plastics place that might give you some spare pieces in the trash if you showed up in person.
Not that it’s any of my business , but what are you gonna do?
As to the Kevlar, you want to use scissors that you aren’t gonna have to use for anything else; but if you are only cutting a few pieces you don’t have to buy the expensive specialty shears. Out here in the West we have a hardware store called "Harbor Freight", but if you go to any large hardware store and take a scrap piece of Kevlar with you, you can usually just test a couple of their cheap scissors (1-5 dollars) until you find one that cuts the Kevlar.
The Ocoee is Royalex, right? You might want to check out a 3M distributor to see if they have any glue made specifically for that material.
Anyway, good luck
RT
http://www.fibreglast.com/
and
http://www.johnrsweet.com/
would be be a good place to start.
It used to be that it was really hard to get small pieces of ABS because they only sold big sheets. Are you near any big towns? Usually there’s a plastics place that might give you some spare pieces in the trash if you showed up in person.
Not that it’s any of my business , but what are you gonna do?
As to the Kevlar, you want to use scissors that you aren’t gonna have to use for anything else; but if you are only cutting a few pieces you don’t have to buy the expensive specialty shears. Out here in the West we have a hardware store called "Harbor Freight", but if you go to any large hardware store and take a scrap piece of Kevlar with you, you can usually just test a couple of their cheap scissors (1-5 dollars) until you find one that cuts the Kevlar.
The Ocoee is Royalex, right? You might want to check out a 3M distributor to see if they have any glue made specifically for that material.
Anyway, good luck
RT
-
Warren
Thanks....
Thanks for the info.
I need to put some skip plates on (I'm starting to worry about blowing out my stern).
More importantly, I need to get some kind of reinforcement along the chines; I've got a crack in the outer layer on my on side from too many hits.
Then eventually I think I may need to start adding to the hull.
Living in WV is taking a toll on this boat. Lots of creeky stuff.
I'm concerned about the weight of all this. Any suggestions as to how to keep it to a minimum? Where to use what material?
Thanks again for the suggestions; they're definitely helpful.
-Warren
I need to put some skip plates on (I'm starting to worry about blowing out my stern).
More importantly, I need to get some kind of reinforcement along the chines; I've got a crack in the outer layer on my on side from too many hits.
Then eventually I think I may need to start adding to the hull.
Living in WV is taking a toll on this boat. Lots of creeky stuff.
I'm concerned about the weight of all this. Any suggestions as to how to keep it to a minimum? Where to use what material?
Thanks again for the suggestions; they're definitely helpful.
-Warren
-
sbroam
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 3969
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:12 am
- Location: Lexington, SC
- Contact:
ABS!
ABS can be bought at a plastic supply house, I don't know how big a town you have to have - we have one here in Columbia and we aren't any sort of megalopolis. I bought a sheet a couple of years ago - about 4'x8' and something in the neighborhood of 1/16" thick (thinnest they had) for about $25. I also bought a gallon of ABS cement for about $25 - I believe it is composed mostly of MEK (methy-ethyl-ketone), a solvent that can reduce ABS to goo.
I used it to very successfully cover up a wear patch on the bottom of my Viper (see the for sale forum!), but had trouble getting it to conform to areas curving in two directions, such as the chines. I think "grunch pads" wouldn't be too hard, in fact I plan on doing that next on our flat water boat. I'd think it would be lighter than kevlar.
There is a fellow I swapped e-mails with who used heat and solvents (but not at the same time) to shape patches for the chines. I don't have an oven big enough (or that I would feel comfortable melting plastic all over...) or a suitable container to try soaking big pieces of ABS in solvent (though I might try it next). I tried heating it in place with a propane torch and a heat gun (again, not at the same time!) - no real luck there. I'll see if I can find the e-mail he sent me.
I was told by a guy at the plastic supplier that ABS is a "200 degree plastic", further explained as the temperature at which you could form it. Given that, I thought I'd try boiling it - it didn't hurt it, but didn't help much either.
Scott
I used it to very successfully cover up a wear patch on the bottom of my Viper (see the for sale forum!), but had trouble getting it to conform to areas curving in two directions, such as the chines. I think "grunch pads" wouldn't be too hard, in fact I plan on doing that next on our flat water boat. I'd think it would be lighter than kevlar.
There is a fellow I swapped e-mails with who used heat and solvents (but not at the same time) to shape patches for the chines. I don't have an oven big enough (or that I would feel comfortable melting plastic all over...) or a suitable container to try soaking big pieces of ABS in solvent (though I might try it next). I tried heating it in place with a propane torch and a heat gun (again, not at the same time!) - no real luck there. I'll see if I can find the e-mail he sent me.
I was told by a guy at the plastic supplier that ABS is a "200 degree plastic", further explained as the temperature at which you could form it. Given that, I thought I'd try boiling it - it didn't hurt it, but didn't help much either.
Scott
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
-
Space Canoe
- C Guru
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:20 am
- Location: Los Angeles
O. K.,
O. K.,
here we go; first off, sorry for the length of this. But if it were me, I would start off with Kevlar putty for the cracks around the chine, and Kevlar felt for the skip plates (?). I'm assuming that these are grunge pads/skid plates, correct? The Kevlar felt is the easiest to bend in any situation, but you have to remember that you need almost NO EPOXY WHATSOEVER for the Kevlar to be functional. I'll bet that over 90 percent of the Kevlar felt that I've seen used has been absolutely worthless because they mixed it with too much resin. If at the end, your skid plate is smooth and hard, then what you basically have is an overpriced Kevlar-colored brittle piece of resin. In order for the Kevlar to not crack but abrade, the outside has to be rough and textured to the touch when you're finished putting it on.
Fibreglast sells a Kevlar pulp (No. 544 I think) that you can mix with just enough resin to make it stick together and then put it in the crack by the chine. The worst thing that will happen is that it will pop out in one piece, and you'll have to try something else, but I've had great luck working with different size cracks and holes on different boats. Unless your boat hull is yellow, it looks pretty gross, sort of like a fish got sick or something, but it works pretty well. After that, I'd try the Kevlar felt, because it's much more flexible than ABS. I cut the piece to the proper size fairly precisely, because the felt will become slightly larger during the process of brushing when you put the resin on. I generally put the piece of felt on a piece of plastic and get it well soaked with resin, and then take a little wooden dowel and use it like a rolling pin to squeeze most of the resin back out of the felt. If this is your first-time working with Kevlar it wouldn't hurt to try a couple test patches. Then I just lay the boat on its side and either put the putty or the felt piece in position. Before I begin the layup, I cut a piece of plastic out of a grocery bag that is slightly larger than the crack and then duct tape it over the top of the Kevlar to hold it in place, or I weigh it down with a couple bricks or something to just get it in the hole firmly. If it doesn't look like the felt will conform to the slight depression of the crack, then you can put the putty in the crack to fill it to where it’s level, and then put the Kevlar felt over it, that's a possibility as well.
Like Scott says, ABS is hard to bend, but you can do it. I've used one of those propane blowtorches, but you really run the risk of burning yourself, and an even greater risk of bubbling the ABS because you have to have the flame at exactly the right distance, which is hard to do for the period of time necessary to heat the ABS to where it can bend. Water is a much better bet. If you have a pot big enough to hold the piece that you've cut, then you just leave it in boiling water, checking it periodically with a pair of tongs to see when it becomes flexible. This takes a fair amount of time, probably around 5 minutes or so, if I recall correctly. When it seems fairly flexible, then you take the pot outside right beside the boat, and THEN take the ABS piece out of the water with tongs, because ABS starts losing its flexibility about 10 seconds after you pull it out of the water. To get the piece to fit the chine you'll probably have to immediately bend it with pliers to the general angle and then press it onto the boat and just hold it there until it cools (probably no more than a minute or so). I use standard leather work gloves that have wool in the interior to protect myself from the initial heat, because the ABS cools really quickly so you don't need any special equipment. I also use a friend, if possible, when working with a big piece of ABS; it's just tons easier and quicker, which is the point with ABS; you have to be really quick with your initial positioning of the piece. The good news is that if it doesn't work the first time, then you just reheat it and try again. If the piece of ABS needs to be longer, and won't fit in your pots, let me know, because there's a way to do this as well, but it takes quite a bit of describing and I've already probably rambled on far too long as it is.
As to weight, I really wouldn't get concerned, Warren, any one of these processes is going to add at most, what? A half a pound or so?
Anyway, hope this helps, and let us know what you end up with;
Ric Taylor
here we go; first off, sorry for the length of this. But if it were me, I would start off with Kevlar putty for the cracks around the chine, and Kevlar felt for the skip plates (?). I'm assuming that these are grunge pads/skid plates, correct? The Kevlar felt is the easiest to bend in any situation, but you have to remember that you need almost NO EPOXY WHATSOEVER for the Kevlar to be functional. I'll bet that over 90 percent of the Kevlar felt that I've seen used has been absolutely worthless because they mixed it with too much resin. If at the end, your skid plate is smooth and hard, then what you basically have is an overpriced Kevlar-colored brittle piece of resin. In order for the Kevlar to not crack but abrade, the outside has to be rough and textured to the touch when you're finished putting it on.
Fibreglast sells a Kevlar pulp (No. 544 I think) that you can mix with just enough resin to make it stick together and then put it in the crack by the chine. The worst thing that will happen is that it will pop out in one piece, and you'll have to try something else, but I've had great luck working with different size cracks and holes on different boats. Unless your boat hull is yellow, it looks pretty gross, sort of like a fish got sick or something, but it works pretty well. After that, I'd try the Kevlar felt, because it's much more flexible than ABS. I cut the piece to the proper size fairly precisely, because the felt will become slightly larger during the process of brushing when you put the resin on. I generally put the piece of felt on a piece of plastic and get it well soaked with resin, and then take a little wooden dowel and use it like a rolling pin to squeeze most of the resin back out of the felt. If this is your first-time working with Kevlar it wouldn't hurt to try a couple test patches. Then I just lay the boat on its side and either put the putty or the felt piece in position. Before I begin the layup, I cut a piece of plastic out of a grocery bag that is slightly larger than the crack and then duct tape it over the top of the Kevlar to hold it in place, or I weigh it down with a couple bricks or something to just get it in the hole firmly. If it doesn't look like the felt will conform to the slight depression of the crack, then you can put the putty in the crack to fill it to where it’s level, and then put the Kevlar felt over it, that's a possibility as well.
Like Scott says, ABS is hard to bend, but you can do it. I've used one of those propane blowtorches, but you really run the risk of burning yourself, and an even greater risk of bubbling the ABS because you have to have the flame at exactly the right distance, which is hard to do for the period of time necessary to heat the ABS to where it can bend. Water is a much better bet. If you have a pot big enough to hold the piece that you've cut, then you just leave it in boiling water, checking it periodically with a pair of tongs to see when it becomes flexible. This takes a fair amount of time, probably around 5 minutes or so, if I recall correctly. When it seems fairly flexible, then you take the pot outside right beside the boat, and THEN take the ABS piece out of the water with tongs, because ABS starts losing its flexibility about 10 seconds after you pull it out of the water. To get the piece to fit the chine you'll probably have to immediately bend it with pliers to the general angle and then press it onto the boat and just hold it there until it cools (probably no more than a minute or so). I use standard leather work gloves that have wool in the interior to protect myself from the initial heat, because the ABS cools really quickly so you don't need any special equipment. I also use a friend, if possible, when working with a big piece of ABS; it's just tons easier and quicker, which is the point with ABS; you have to be really quick with your initial positioning of the piece. The good news is that if it doesn't work the first time, then you just reheat it and try again. If the piece of ABS needs to be longer, and won't fit in your pots, let me know, because there's a way to do this as well, but it takes quite a bit of describing and I've already probably rambled on far too long as it is.
As to weight, I really wouldn't get concerned, Warren, any one of these processes is going to add at most, what? A half a pound or so?
Anyway, hope this helps, and let us know what you end up with;
Ric Taylor
-
Space Canoe
- C Guru
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:20 am
- Location: Los Angeles
You know;
You know; the more that I think about it, an ABS stern sounds awfully good ifyou're whacking it a lot.
RT
RT
-
Daniel Holzman
Dynel cloth
You might want to try Dynel cloth, available from John Sweet, rather than ABS or Kevlar. Dynel is tough as nails, as easy to put on as fiberglass, and sticks well to ABS boats (use epoxy resin, NOT vinylester resin). I use West Systems epoxy, works great.
Dynel is the stuff you see on the edges of wooden paddles to prevent abrasion, it is not as strong as Kevlar, but it is more abrasion resistant, plus it is not as touchy about the exact amount of resin you use.
Dynel is the stuff you see on the edges of wooden paddles to prevent abrasion, it is not as strong as Kevlar, but it is more abrasion resistant, plus it is not as touchy about the exact amount of resin you use.
Skid plates
Warren
Let me know when your going to do the work and I'll help you out. We'll do it at the cabin then go for a paddle (you can borrow a boat) then finish off the work with a beer.
Kevlar felt is what I used on my OC1 and it held up for 7 years of my abuse. Howevre, I think the suggestions on material all work here. Your call.
As for the ABS - well between the two of us the mistake factor should be minialized!
Let me know.
PS: I have another boat that need outfitted. You might want to check it out.
Let me know when your going to do the work and I'll help you out. We'll do it at the cabin then go for a paddle (you can borrow a boat) then finish off the work with a beer.
Kevlar felt is what I used on my OC1 and it held up for 7 years of my abuse. Howevre, I think the suggestions on material all work here. Your call.
As for the ABS - well between the two of us the mistake factor should be minialized!
Let me know.
PS: I have another boat that need outfitted. You might want to check it out.
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
-
Tommy T
ABS
I put an ABS patch on the inside of my Outrage where my thighstrap D-ring tore out.
I work in a plastic plant so I asked some of the techs for tips.
They told me to heat the patch in the oven at around 125 F for 30 minutes to "unstress" it before making any final cuts. Sure enough it got longer in one direction and shorter in the other. I used my kitchen oven when my wife was out. It didn't stink up the house like I was afraid it might.
I used a heat gun to bend it, vynabond to glue it and I still had to weight it to make it conform.
So far So good.
I work in a plastic plant so I asked some of the techs for tips.
They told me to heat the patch in the oven at around 125 F for 30 minutes to "unstress" it before making any final cuts. Sure enough it got longer in one direction and shorter in the other. I used my kitchen oven when my wife was out. It didn't stink up the house like I was afraid it might.
I used a heat gun to bend it, vynabond to glue it and I still had to weight it to make it conform.
So far So good.
-
Warren
Thanks
Thanks you all for your information. I'm leaning towards abs (it just seems like it makes the most sense for scrapey boating). It's tough stuff to find though (after making several calls in the Morgantown area I've come up with nothing thinner than 4mm). I've been paddling my maimed boat (probably a bad idea), but next week I'm going to pull it together. There's nothing worse than being out of commission in the Spring.
Paul, if I don't figure it out before next weekend I'll take you up on the help for sure. Anyplace up your way that has ABS? What boat are you looking at outfitting?
-Warren
Paul, if I don't figure it out before next weekend I'll take you up on the help for sure. Anyplace up your way that has ABS? What boat are you looking at outfitting?
-Warren
Well...
Let me know the exact details relating to what you need on the ABS arena. I'll then look about (or if you get a lead off the net I can be a delivery boy).
Not problem on the fix. The wife will look down on the oven use but I can explain that if things go bad she gets a new oven at the cabin. We'll have to watch her after that!
As for the boat - I have a glass creeker that needs to be picked up over at Ron's and outfitted. I know glass and creeker sound like an oximoron but I have the sucker and it is seat less.
I also have to set up another boat for a Ker who is thinking of coming to the darkside!
Keep me posted and The X will be about for you to borrow. To bad its Opening weekend of trout or I'd met you up at Slippery Rock.
If Indian Creek is running I might do that. Can't do Meadow or Yough since the fisherman will be out and we're not in season.
Not problem on the fix. The wife will look down on the oven use but I can explain that if things go bad she gets a new oven at the cabin. We'll have to watch her after that!
As for the boat - I have a glass creeker that needs to be picked up over at Ron's and outfitted. I know glass and creeker sound like an oximoron but I have the sucker and it is seat less.
I also have to set up another boat for a Ker who is thinking of coming to the darkside!
Keep me posted and The X will be about for you to borrow. To bad its Opening weekend of trout or I'd met you up at Slippery Rock.
If Indian Creek is running I might do that. Can't do Meadow or Yough since the fisherman will be out and we're not in season.
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Well...
Let me know the exact details relating to what you need on the ABS arena. I'll then look about (or if you get a lead off the net I can be a delivery boy).
Not problem on the fix. The wife will look down on the oven use but I can explain that if things go bad she gets a new oven at the cabin. We'll have to watch her after that!
As for the boat - I have a glass creeker that needs to be picked up over at Ron's and outfitted. I know glass and creeker sound like an oximoron but I have the sucker and it is seat less.
I also have to set up another boat for a Ker who is thinking of coming to the darkside!
Keep me posted and The X will be about for you to borrow. To bad its Opening weekend of trout or I'd met you up at Slippery Rock.
If Indian Creek is running I might do that. Can't do Meadow or Yough since the fisherman will be out and we're not in season.
Not problem on the fix. The wife will look down on the oven use but I can explain that if things go bad she gets a new oven at the cabin. We'll have to watch her after that!
As for the boat - I have a glass creeker that needs to be picked up over at Ron's and outfitted. I know glass and creeker sound like an oximoron but I have the sucker and it is seat less.
I also have to set up another boat for a Ker who is thinking of coming to the darkside!
Keep me posted and The X will be about for you to borrow. To bad its Opening weekend of trout or I'd met you up at Slippery Rock.
If Indian Creek is running I might do that. Can't do Meadow or Yough since the fisherman will be out and we're not in season.
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
-
sbroam
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 3969
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:12 am
- Location: Lexington, SC
- Contact:
ABS
All I can sugest is hit the yellow pages under "Plastics-Rods, Tubes, Sheets, Etc-Supply Centers". I got mine at "Commercial Plastics & Supply" - I think they are regional, if not national. I did a quick search and Pittsburgh shows "Total Plastics Inc" but I can't tell what they sell. If nothing else works out, I can get some here and bring it to the armada?
Scott
Scott
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
-
sbroam
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 3969
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:12 am
- Location: Lexington, SC
- Contact:
Commercial Plastics = GE Polymershapes
More research : Commercial Plastics = GE Polymershapes
I called my local plastics supplier and they are now called GE Polymershapes. I priced ABS in three thicknesses for 4'x8' sheets :
.020" $14.62
.040" $15.30
.060" $17.40 *
*I think this is the best thickness, it's about 1/16" and it is in stock (the others are in CA) - they have thicknesses available at 1/8" and 3/16", though, too.
Colors are black and white - one side smooth, one side rough - the rough side ready to accept the cement.
I'm pretty sure other locations will have access to the same materials : http://www.gepolymershapes.com/pshapes/ ... ations.jsp
There is not a location in VW, but there is in Pittsburgh... Also, could bring some to the Armada if need be - let me know, I'm thinking of going and picking up a sheet or two for some projects myself.
Scott
I called my local plastics supplier and they are now called GE Polymershapes. I priced ABS in three thicknesses for 4'x8' sheets :
.020" $14.62
.040" $15.30
.060" $17.40 *
*I think this is the best thickness, it's about 1/16" and it is in stock (the others are in CA) - they have thicknesses available at 1/8" and 3/16", though, too.
Colors are black and white - one side smooth, one side rough - the rough side ready to accept the cement.
I'm pretty sure other locations will have access to the same materials : http://www.gepolymershapes.com/pshapes/ ... ations.jsp
There is not a location in VW, but there is in Pittsburgh... Also, could bring some to the Armada if need be - let me know, I'm thinking of going and picking up a sheet or two for some projects myself.
Scott
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
Well..
Warren
Sounds like Scotts done most of the leg work. I looked on the sight and the info is this..
GE Polymershapes
2022 Chateau Street
Pittsburgh, PA 15233
Phone: 412-231-2212
Fax: 412-231-1989
However, they don't have it in stock. They would have to order a case if the min. is not in stock - in the system (Sounds like it "in the system" is based on Scott's email).
If you order you would have to have it delivered by truck (that would be a tough delivery to your crib in Morgantown) if it can't be rolled up or by UPS if it can be. Either way there is frieght charges. Sounds expensive. Even if deliveried to their site here in the "Burgh" the charges would appy (I'd pick it up for you if it was cheaper).
Maybe you should go in with Scott on an order and then bribe him with an adult beverage of his chosing and gas cash to bring up some to the Armada.
One more suggestion - call these folks again since some times the story changes based on who you talk to. FYI
Check your email relating to Big Splat - very said. You said you were on the BS on Sat. so hopefully you missed this. I've seen too many bad things happen in that top seciton - I always walk it.
The big blue creeker is at the cabin under the side porch if your hot to paddle it. It's all yours - enjoy! It needs outfitted and some seams, etc laid up but should work for you. It will give you a chance to practice prior to working with the kevlar on the open boat. Let me know if you need a hand with it. I have to do glass and outfitting work to on the other boat as well.
Let me know if your interested in doing the Slip this Friday.
CU and be safe on the Sandy. PAC
Sounds like Scotts done most of the leg work. I looked on the sight and the info is this..
GE Polymershapes
2022 Chateau Street
Pittsburgh, PA 15233
Phone: 412-231-2212
Fax: 412-231-1989
However, they don't have it in stock. They would have to order a case if the min. is not in stock - in the system (Sounds like it "in the system" is based on Scott's email).
If you order you would have to have it delivered by truck (that would be a tough delivery to your crib in Morgantown) if it can't be rolled up or by UPS if it can be. Either way there is frieght charges. Sounds expensive. Even if deliveried to their site here in the "Burgh" the charges would appy (I'd pick it up for you if it was cheaper).
Maybe you should go in with Scott on an order and then bribe him with an adult beverage of his chosing and gas cash to bring up some to the Armada.
One more suggestion - call these folks again since some times the story changes based on who you talk to. FYI
Check your email relating to Big Splat - very said. You said you were on the BS on Sat. so hopefully you missed this. I've seen too many bad things happen in that top seciton - I always walk it.
The big blue creeker is at the cabin under the side porch if your hot to paddle it. It's all yours - enjoy! It needs outfitted and some seams, etc laid up but should work for you. It will give you a chance to practice prior to working with the kevlar on the open boat. Let me know if you need a hand with it. I have to do glass and outfitting work to on the other boat as well.
Let me know if your interested in doing the Slip this Friday.
CU and be safe on the Sandy. PAC
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!