furthermore I could care less what someone paddles...sounds like Mr. Michaud could paddle a bathtub with success, it's probably not the boat...just because Nolan still paddles a BIG boat, why should I want to
Actually, I'm pretty fussy about the boats that I paddle. I would much prefer to paddle a boat that helps me overcome my inefficiencies than to paddle a boat that I have to overcome the boats inefficiencies. The boats that I therefore end up paddling are often called beginner boats and to that I say... Yup (and smile).
I agree with everything nice that's been mentioned about the Outrage. It's very responsive, forgiving and fairly light. It's what I've been paddling for quite a few years now.
I agree that wannabe should test drive before she buys.
But going from a stable boat like the XL, she's probably going to find any higher-performance boat she moves into to be somewhat of a challenge, and it's not easy for a beginner to figure out what kind of learning curve they are looking at based solely on a test paddle or two.
I recomended an Outrage because I know from first-hand experience that she will probably have a much more manageble learning curve with it than with something like an Ocoee. I'm sure other boats would work for her also- but I haven't paddled those enough to give an opinion.
And she certainly shouldn't paddle anything just because you, I or anyone else paddles it. I was just trying to point out that she doesn't really have to worry about outgrowing the Outrage in the next few paddling seasons.
Considering that you're a "wannabe" who wants to get out the XL13 and try a nimble boat, but still on class II rivers, and are looking used, I'm not surprised that the Outrage is a common recommendation - it does fit that bill of an intro-friendly-but-responsive ww canoe. As mentioned, a Rival, or a Mohawk Probe 12II, are generally similar to the Outrage if you're not too picky.
I think an Ocoee is more than just a canoe "that you won't grow out of too soon". To me, it sounds like the Ocoee, Zoom, Viper, Solito, might be more boat than you're looking for. Not only the stability and chines may result in frustration, but the point about paddling a short/slow boat on some flatter water is also a good one.
By all means try whatever boats you can, and lots of women love the Phantom so that might a good one to try if you can find one. But I think the Outrage is a good middle-of-the-road response to your post - just don't focus only an Outrage, try whatever smaller boats you come across.
In fact, all the opinions you get are probably somewhat moot relative to you getting whatever it is that happens to come up on your used market.
My recomendations
1 Mad River Outrage, good speed, reasonably nimble and forgiving. At 200 lbs I feel I'm overweight in this boat. At 170 I was perfect.
2 Dagger Rival, a bit faster and slightly less nimble than the Outrage. Same weight range. Maybe a bit more forgiving. Kaz at Milbrook makes composite Rivals.
3 Dagger Ovation, very similar performance to the Outrage but 6" shorter and a touch slower.
3 Esquif Detonator, even shorter at 10'. Significantly slower and more nimble than any of the others. Still reasonably forgiving.
There are others, the Bell Prodigy and Esquif Zephyr for starters, that sound good. But I havn't seen enough of them to have an opinion.
Thank you for all the advise - I do plan on trying before buying, but there are alot of options out there for used boats and I was hoping to narrow down somewhat what it is I am looking for (which this did - thank you!)
I think I actually know someone or another who paddles most of the boats mentioned (did that actully make sense?) - time to track down some folks & ask to try-out some boats!
I thought I would chime in again. Wannabe - you need to consider where the advice is comming from and no matter what the guys say size does matter. I have started many beginners in the Phantom and as long as there are not large men the do just fine. The think is when you consider our size relative to the phantom it is just like one of these larger guys paddling a 12 foot boat.
I don't see the Phantom as a high performance boat like the Ocoee - I would definatly not recommend an Ocoee for you. I have several times tried to "like" the Ocoee but always felt like I was one paddle stroke from swimming. As for paddling on flat water - I don't see much difference in the speed I can attain between the Rival and the Phantom. The decrease in weight/size on the Phantom makes up for the hull speed of the Rival and in the end they equal out on flat water.
Julie
P.S. My helmet is safety gear - it is very easy to know where to throw the rope becasue I'm easily spotted while swimming!
I've got an Outrage and love it...... 5'3" and around 120 give or take a sugar rampage.....
what I like about it is it's narrow and I can reach te water on my ofside without feeling like someone is ripping my spine out. It is really fast
Don't worry about the primary stability, you'll get use to that fast and I only notice a differnece getting in a boat in a tight spot. Ocassionally on a bobble on a diagonal I'll pay the price as well....it doesn't have that "rise up " feeling when you try and surf a wave like an ocooe does. sometimes it takes a little more "feel" to know you have caught that transport...but coming from an XL you'll not notice that. I have wood gunwales on mine and the slight change in hull shape and stiffness they provided is really enjoyable.
Being 5' 5" though gives you more options....I know people knock the ovation sometimes but it seems to be a intermediate between the rival and ocoee...phantom never paddled but have heard mixed reviews so try before you buy.
The girls up this way (Ontario Quebec) seem to love the detanator because it fits women well....I never have, found it slow....the zyphr is a nice boat, it has some tuned down features of the Ocoee but much drier and lighter and nice and stiff. Confidence inspiring comes to mind.
What kind of rivers do you want to do? 11/111 creeks are way different than rivers......I'm finding that the outrage is a bit harder to manouver in smaller creeks....tight little eddies aren't as easy, I need to decide on eddies way ahead of the taureaus and ocoees and make sure the flow out the back isn't going to grap my bigger footprint
if you aren't afraid of swimming and have a good self rescue then pick up a hull with a little more room to grow(chines) try the new Paradigm if you get a chance, it's pretty narrow looking or even a zoom or an older design like the ocoee
The Outrage is a fantastic platform for sure, but I'm not a risk taker and like the dry sure lines...if you like little tight eddies then go for a boat with a little more chine you can use for snap eddies.....the outrage will carve but doesn't snap...at least at my skill level.
for rolling I didn't find it harder than any other platform and coming from an XL you should find it easy
two cents
I've also been looking for an OC1 for quite some time. I am 5'2" and weigh around 110-115. My abilities are similar to wwwg. I almost bought a flashback earlier this year. any thoughts on the Outrage for my size? Thankyou.
I've met a few smaller gals that paddle Bell Prodigy's and really like them. Personally I don't think they are as fun for playing as an outrage, but they are nimble quick river runners and good for attainments. Worth a test drive
After paddling an Ovation for the last 5 years, I'd have to say I don't really like them ( tend to skid instead of carve ), but my wife who is 5'6" 120# loves the Ovation and another lady friend of mine who is 5'3" 115# is also very fond of it.
Someone posted a Phantom for sale today. Should be pretty easy to get it to the armada. I might be able to carry it myself. Of course Julie might snap it up as a spare boat, never know...
I'm not interested in snapping it up as a spare and actually came here tonight to post that I saw a Phantom for sale on the MCC board. I think the price is too high!
Nice to see another chick on the board. I just got back into OC-1 after a 20 yr hiatus and after months of research and advice gathering from this forum, have bought myself a Rival. It's fantastic! Plus it's made of R-lite so is very easy for me to load and unload alone from the top of my truck. I'm a nervous class III paddler and find the Rival very responsive and fun and easy to paddle. I can load it with gear for a multi-day trip and it still handles great. And I feel like it's a boat I can grow with for a long time. From the reviews I read while researching, the Phantom sounded a bit squirrely for an intermediate. For the record - I'm 5'-9ish", 155lbs.
Too bad you live on the east coast! I'd be happy to loan you my boat.
I used to live in Ithaca, so I know the sort of creeks around you. The Outrage would work fine on all of them. If you need to demo one Cornell Outdoor Education has one, but I'm not 100% sure they'll rent it. If you know any of the instructors, however, they can probably get it for you.
My wife loves her Phantom. She's 5'5" or so and 100lbs. It's a good stable boat for her and easier for her to move around., although at her weight she finds any boat a bit of a battle in a headwind. It's also great on NY/PA rivers and creeks.
I also loved my Detonator as a learning boat - it was my first OC1 after learning in the Cornell Outing Club XL13. I'm 5'10" and 150ish lbs, if that helps. I now paddle a Zoom and love it, but wouldn't recommend it for a starter boat unless you are willing to push hard, swim a lot and work on your roll. The Detonator took me from class II/III to seriously considering the Bottom Moose (I never open boated that because it was always too high the times I was there once I felt ready).
For a Rival, Steve Busch who is from Binghamton has one I think. If not, he's probably got a couple of other boats around you could try. He used to post her once upon a time SteveBusch is his username.
Hope this helps some - enjoy paddling in NY. Lots of rivers, but also lots of driving ....of course you're also only 5.5hrs from the put-in to the Ottawa - that's definitely doable in a weekend with a couple of friends.
Cheersm
NZMatt
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
