Thigh Straps 101

[kneeler]

I'm converting my first creeker and I've decided that thigh straps are probably safer than my usual seatbelts.

Can someone give me the basics of installing thigh straps?

- What type of webbing, buckles, attachment points will I need?
- How do I position the straps on my legs?
- What mistakes am I going to make the first time I do this?
- What safety concerns should I consider?
- Anything else?

FYI, I am converting a Dragorossi Gangster using a Dagger Pedistal.

[PAC]

I agree that thigh straps are probably safer than seatbelts or a suicide block but that IMO.

Straps like all outfitting are dependent on the user - so take this for free advice! And you know what that is worth!

I use webbing from EMS or REI. I try to use tubular (climbing) but have used flat webbing. I like 2" for play boats and 3" for big water / creeking.
I like the straps up high on my tigh - the higher the better! With the anchor points solid and close. I never have had an issue getting out of a boat but I don't use toe blocks and rely on ankle block pressure to hold me in - which works well with the straps up high and tight.
I use the largest stainless washers I can on the outside of the straps / boat at the contact points. I have sewn and used plastic back packing clips with double backers to hold the straps and both have worked for me (now I generally just use the backpacking clips). I also use the straps as a loop so that there area two straps over each thigh.
Some folks add double straps (high and low) and I think that is a good set up. Just I never used that set up.
Check out Mike Yee's and other sites for ideas. Also ask Martin to email you his Finkenmeisters set up - its a good overview in strap technology. How to loop at the contact point, etc.
The biggest mistake that is made is anchor point placement. Usually the first time you don't move it in close enough to your core and have to remount them. Remember to measure 3 times and cut &/or drill once! If your not "looping" the strap like Martin does and do a fixed point make sure you support that contact area with large washers.
To burn a hole in the webbing I just use a very hot nail held by vise grips to melt a hole through the webbing - heating the tip up with a blow torch. The wife and kids hate the smell!
I know I'm forgetting stuff but others will chime in I'm sure.
Keep us posted on how the strapping goes and how the Dragorossi Gangster paddles.
Paul C.

[kneeler]

Thanks for the response, Paul.

Some follow up questions for Paul (or others):

Are the "backpacking clips" quick release? What do these look like?

If you need to wet-exit, do you release the straps or just wiggle out?

And some more general questions:

Can anyone that uses "double straps" provide some detail about that setup?

Ideally, I would like to use buckles that I can attach to a single strap so that I can release the system by pulling a single strap. I've seen such a set-up with cam buckles.

Has anyone ever used cam buckles? I have found that the gate on cam buckles can pop out under pressure. Can anyone recommend a source of solid cam buckles? Any alternative suggestions?

[msims]

By "Cam Buckles" do you mean V-W beetle-buckles?

Search the forum here for a post by me or martin with VW or "buckle" and you will find a distributor in Canada.

These buckles are for cars and are steel, with a stainless coating. I use them as a lap belt but I think you could use them as a thigh belt as well - they're plenty long enough, if you have a single continuous belt.

[PAC]

I knew I forgot stuff! The "backpacking clips" are those plastic ones that are on most backpacks or day packs - usually 3 prong but some are 2 prong. They are not quick release.



But they don't need to be since - at least in my case - once I relase downward pressure on my ankle blocks and outward presure on my knees I flush out. I've been jammed in some tight spots and getting hung up has not been an issue. No wiggling required even in a forward facing bow pin... but lets not re-live that!

I know Big Al has the double strap set up in this Zoom and it is nice - lots of contact points with the boat for control.


Toe / foot pegs shown here and no ankle blocks.

Single straps work but can be a bugger if one contact points at the base of center base fails - then you SOL. With two points you can ideally swap the failed strap over to the other and make it off the river with less stress.

There is a cam release system for both single and double straps but I don't know the details (hint to others). I think this would be really sweet in tight technical creeks were the margin of error is low. Maybe Jan from BC has some thoughts here.

Keep on asking questions and let us know where you go. Paul C.

[billcanoes]

Hi Kneeler,

THe thigh straps ARE quick release- I have that in one of my wheelboys- and PACs Micro- and I think my Burn- I just got my XL c1 skirt for it- I try to pay attention to where the quick release is so it can release enough to let me out easily-
I STOPPED using North water padded thigh straps in c1 because the buckle hit the dring not allowing it to release- I still use North water velcro thigh straps- they release easily

I also have velcro thigh straps in 3 of my boats - I think I like these the best

North water also makes a rigid thigh strap which I really like you can get in really easily and the realease is easy-

basically mount drings behind the seat- check out the photos of the outfitting

I can send you the picks I have- with the dagger pedestal it should have an anchor point for the base- so you will just need a webbed d ring for the back

my mistake the first time was not having it high enough on my crotch so it didnt do a good job holding me in- but I didnt know how to roll so I was being very timid

[yarnellboat]

It is a common mistake to start out timid and make your anchors too loose; on the other hand, that's a better mistake than freaking yourself out.

Most conversions I've seen use the front bolt of the (former) kayak outfitting as the top anchor, and some kind of post or rail for the bottom anchor(s).

For quick release, I have a loop of webbing attached to my post/rail. The loop is quick release to a plastic "flip-up" buckle off a safety vest. My Northwater thigh straps then attached to this releasable loop.

I've also run a smaller (1") webbing attachment from the quick release buckle, under the skirt to the pull tab, and attached them with Velcro. However, it takes an extra committed/long pull to release the skirt and get all the slack to release the buckle. I can wriggle out of my straps without releasing them.

I use knee straps and thigh straps in my OC-1, in my C-1 there's the bulkhead for my knees.

PY.

[CDawg]

I don't know abut the draggo, but I've converted several WS boats and I do not drill any new holes to mount straps. On WS there are holes for seat attachment, I remove bolts, remove seat, and use the rear of the two holes for the top of the rear strap; plug the other with a bolt/washer. On the WS there will be a smaller fromt hole on each side (holds kayak knee bracesetup), I use that one for the attachment point of the front of the two-strap system. I do not knwo how this will corespond on the Draggo, but maybe this info will help. On the WS boats I've converted the holes turn out to be in the perfect position to mount the Mikey two strap setup. Good luck.

[philcanoe]

a good trick used in Team Edge Outfitting (by Frankie Hubbard) was to use tubular webbing, and include a piece of plastic or fiberglass in between the webbing... (inside the tubing/tube)... this is similar to grab loops on some boats... you cut the strips to be inbedded, so that they are longer than the anchor points are apart... this will make the strap curve and stand up...this will eliminate to need to have nylon string(s) holding the straps up... makes getting in easier... and looks a lot more professional, than a bunch of dangling this and that... not to mention a little bit safer

you can use this method with a quick release system, just keep the release system close to an anchor

[kneeler]

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

After reading the posts, I decided to go with a looping system on this one. Though I really like the idea of the double strap system, I thought I would hold off on that for the next conversion.

I ended up mounting D rings to my Dagger kit and to the cockpit rim behind my seat. Thanks to posts by Paul C. and yarnellboat, I mounted the D rings in more aggressive positions that I would otherwise have selected. I think this was for the best after taking a test drive.

Primarily due to availability (I drove to several outdoor outfitters looking for parts), I used 2" flat webbing with side release buckles (I think this is the proper term for the "backpacking clips" Paul C. recommended). I might play around with different straps/buckle systems as these straps did seem to loosen up a bit.

I found the system to be exactly what I wanted. I can easily get out of the boat but it holds me in well enough for creeking and river running.

I took some photos of the setup and will be posting a blog entry at some point to share the experience.

The Dragorossi Gangster made an excellent conversion. To respond to cdawg, Dragorossi now sells their boats with a-la-carte outfitting so there are fewer holes than in a fully outfitted kyack. I found this to be a refeshing change from normal for that and other reasons like less time ripping out kyack outfitting and lower cost. I got to drill the holes exactly where I wanted them. Coincidently, two holes happened to be exactly where Dragorossi would have mounted their foot contraption in the kyack.

To answer your question, msims, when I mentioned "cam buckles", I was refering to the plastic gates similar in release style to the VW seatbelts; the exception being that the strap feeds through the buckle instead of having a male piece that causes the system to break at the buckle when released. I typically use airplane seatbelts in my playboats but thought that might be over-complicating things when installing thigh straps. As I mentioned above, I used side release buckles to start with but I plan to try a few different systems.

Question:
Does anyone use something similar in effect to a backpack sternum strap to keep the thigh straps in postion?

[Larry Horne]

let's get a review of that gangster!


if you're looking at buckles...i really like these 2"contoured superloc ladder locks. they don't slip at all and will not break. lots of other cool stuff here too.
http://www.seattlefabrics.com/ladder.html