Tub of Fun prototype OC1

[RodeoClown]

That's an interesting take on it- but it's kind of like saying the current crop of freestyle kayaks- or better yet, squirtboats- aren't really kayaks because they're so far removed from what kayaks were at some point in the past- whether it's a Mirage, Klepper, or something made out of driftwood and skins....

But just as what defines a "kayak" as a kayak is the fact that you sit in it with your legs out in front of you, use a 2 bladed paddle, and wear a spray skirt, what defines an OC-1 is that you kneel in the boat, use a single bladed paddle, and don't wear a skirt- and if you wore a skirt it would be a c-1. That's the plain and simple definition. The "rules" are only there for the sake of competition and trying to keep the playing field level.

Not so sure the bit about marketing and boat sales really holds water (40L ) I mean, the sales just aren't there anyway- and neither are the numbers of designs to be sold. Really, it's just about having fun- and the people pushing the freestyle OC-1's are doing it purely for their own enjoyment.

And honestly, if it weren't for the rules, the little canoe I built for worlds this year would probably be open end to end and look a good bit more like an traditional canoe, but I've got to keep that 40L of water in somehow.... but if I'm kneeling in a boat with airbags and no sprayskirt and using a canoe paddle, it's hard to say I'm not paddling a canoe. It's a darn funny looking little canoe, but it's a canoe. And it has wood gunnels

[philcanoe]

Since when do a bunch of Brits, German, Austrailian whatevers' freestylers get to define what a open boat is anyway? ... IMHO it doesn't fly.

actually I've paddled with Brits, German, Australian, etc. and they've been good boaters,... Really Good Open Boaters... furthermore it's called World Championships... one of the few (if not only the) world championship events for open canoes... and as such should have world wide classification ... it would or will be a sorry state of affairs to see it end... or to see or be able to only purchase only what your definition of a canoe is... IMHO if you can't FLY, then don't tell me I shouldn't

[bearboater]

speaking of flying, I did my first, well, I don't know what it was, I started doing pirouettes, and then just threw the bow down, and shot my self back up, I believe I was airborne a few times.
and also, just a note rodeoclown I think that your new little blackfly looks awesome, and I hope it goes well for you. and good luck.
skaal
-isaac

[Sandie_]

I'm sure ive seen that design before:

[Craig Smerda]

Since when do a bunch of Brits, German, Austrailian whatevers' freestylers get to define what a open boat is anyway?

These are some of the most badass paddlers from all corners of the globe that came together... think of it as the "U.N." if you have to. How does it matter or affect you?... are you going to buy or build a freestyle OC-1 and start competing...? If so... that's frickn' awesome dude. We need some new blood out there hitting the events and pushing the sport forward... not dragging it backwards or being eliminated all together. When only one or two people are even interested in showing up and competing at team trials or world cup events... that speaks volumes for us... doesn't it?

Personally I think all the uakes,spanishflys,taureau's and the like are a cross between an openboat and a C1, : meaning they are a breed of their own.

That makes them better boats for the things that I want to do most of the time on the river. You should try one... you might like a different flavor than vanilla for a change. Where you at?... maybe I can arrange a demo for you. I'm always happy to help a fellow single sticker out you know.

US open boaters became frustrated with some of the limitations of traditional canoe designs and came up with these hybrids. BUT unwilling to admit they paddle anything other than a canoe/openboat , the canoe definition was stretched so far its now unrecognizeable from its original.

WTH are you talking about?... What's the difference if you cut down a Mowhawk rodeo and put 28 inch deckplates on it or just build a better and different boat that does the same thing? I define "open" as open cockpit where water can enter the boat. Maybe your definition is different... maybe you are just looking for an argument here?... but thanks for telling everyone what you think is the truth. Too bad about your lack of information.

Then the marketers got their pins going tried to persuade traditional canoeists' into accepting these hybrids as canoes by creating competions and their associated hero's and icons. Ill admit its a great bunch of boats, but why not call them what they are? I think is because the manufactures thinks they can sell a lot more of them if they can convince the the buying public that they actually are openboats. IMHO it doesn't fly.

Huh?... well I guess if you can call a sit on top a kayak then you can call these boats "canoes" right? If you think there is a lot of money being made on any of these boats... or most whitewater boats in the marketplace... well... then you are sadly mistaken my friend.



I don't care if you're paddling a Grumman or a Salsa, a Croco-Kayak or the latest freestyle/surfing machine... as long as you are having fun and out on the water and I see a smile on your face. That is what is important to me.

[the great gonzo]

I don't care if you're paddling a Grumman or a Salsa, a Croco-Kayak or the latest freestyle/surfing machine... as long as you are having fun and out on the water and I see a smile on your face. That is what is important to me.

Right on Craig !

[kx250guy]

Wow Smerda I must have hit a nerve. If we have a diffrence of opnion whats that to you? cant you just state you opnion with out reverting to such rants? What's wrong with admitting they are just a new kind of boat? So what if they "badass" paddlers, Do they get to define the rest of the sport for us? No. There have been lots of badass paddlers over the years, this is just the latest bunch. Ive paddled with some fantastic paddlers over the years but that doesnt mean their or my opnions anybetter than anyones elses. I dont have to build boats to have a valid opnion either. Who is dragging the sport backwards? READ MY THREAD.. nowhere did I say they wernt good boats or mfg's should stop making them. Try to understand this '' Manufacturer sponsered rodeo paddlers opnions are no better than anyone elses and therefore do not have the right to redifine an entire sport for everyone else. ''. As far as my paddling credentials goes, I taught Frankie Hubbard when he was starting some paddling technique on the hiawasee, I was also one of the first paddlers to run the lower meadow in a fiberglass C1 (hahn) in 74' I think. I presently paddle an ovation and c1 conv. wavesport z. Anyway. Smerda lay off the caffeine for a while. cheers!

[mshelton]

Shampoooo is better....

[creek1r]

Don Hegy at Great Outdoors Provision in Winston-Salem, NC may have one. I considered buying it 5 years ago.

[Craig Smerda]

Wow Smerda I must have hit a nerve. If we have a diffrence of opnion whats that to you? cant you just state you opnion with out reverting to such rants? What's wrong with admitting they are just a new kind of boat? So what if they "badass" paddlers, Do they get to define the rest of the sport for us? No. There have been lots of badass paddlers over the years, this is just the latest bunch. Ive paddled with some fantastic paddlers over the years but that doesnt mean their or my opnions anybetter than anyones elses. I dont have to build boats to have a valid opnion either. Who is dragging the sport backwards? READ MY THREAD.. nowhere did I say they wernt good boats or mfg's should stop making them. Try to understand this '' Manufacturer sponsered rodeo paddlers opnions are no better than anyone elses and therefore do not have the right to redifine an entire sport for everyone else. ''. As far as my paddling credentials goes, I taught Frankie Hubbard when he was starting some paddling technique on the hiawasee, I was also one of the first paddlers to run the lower meadow in a fiberglass C1 (hahn) in 74' I think. I presently paddle an ovation and c1 conv. wavesport z. Anyway. Smerda lay off the caffeine for a while. cheers!

Ok then... so "who" gets to make up the rules then... cuz' in my "opinion" it should be the people showing up to compete... no matter who they paddle for... or with. Do the kayakers have special "rulez" for their boats specs...?... he'yll NO. Who should the rules and specs be dictated by? Frankly your post seemed extremely accusatory and I especially didn't appreciate your comments about the non-north american paddlers... what a pompus thing to say... in my opinion.

Who are you?... not much info in your profile... I was "assuming" a troll. I've seen you bash other people on this M/B and you seem to have a certain disdain for Esquif or anyone affiliated with them as well... so WTF is your problem? If you'd like to take this off the board just PM me and we can continue there... rant over!

Where's my Mountain Dew?

[mshelton]

Noo, condItioner is better...

[RodeoClown]

Do the kayakers have special "rulez" for their boats specs...?... he'yll NO.

Well, actually there are "rules"- but again, only if you're competing:
For freestyle, you have to be sitting with your legs in front of you, and use a 2-bladed paddle.
For Slalom, you have to you have to be sitting with your legs in front of you, and use a 2-bladed paddle, boat has a min. length 350cm, min width of 60cm, I think there's a min weight too...
For creek/extreme racing and boatercross there are usually length restrictions, but those vary from race to race (8'6" is popular).
For Wildwater... ah, you get the idea

I think the fundamental question is what makes a kayak a kayak, a c-1 a c-1 and and OC-1 and OC-1- and I already answered that- if you're sitting and using 2 blades, your in a kayak, if you're kneeling, using one blade, and wearing a skirt, you're in a c-1, and if your kneeling, using one blade, and not wearing a skirt, you're in an OC-1. This is really the most basic definition- but I don't really think there's a better way to define things...

This arguement really demonstrates to me a big part of the reason OC-1 freestyle is dying- the kayakers don't want to do, the c-boaters don't want to do it, and the "Canoeists" don't want to do it either... Craig, it looks like it's up to you, me, and the rest of the manufacturer sponsored rodeo OC-1ers to try to keep it alive

[PAC]

The Admins encourage spirited and well intentioned debates but folks as a reminder....please .... strive to keep them on topic, courteous and appropriate in language and tone.

We're keeping this thread up because it is a vary good debate but we have concerns with it heading into a bad place!

We thank you since it makes our work much easier!

Paul C.

[Craig Smerda]

This arguement really demonstrates to me a big part of the reason OC-1 freestyle is dying- the kayakers don't want to do, the c-boaters don't want to do it, and the "Canoeists" don't want to do it either... Craig, it looks like it's up to you, me, and the rest of the manufacturer sponsored rodeo OC-1ers to try to keep it alive

This is a small potato of an argument to me... I used to be on the Open Canoe Slalom Rules committee. But yeah... you're exactly right Jeremy... it's up to the people who show up and want to compete... and not just at the "Worlds"... I'm talking about your local rodeos as well. Fortunately I live in an area of the country that always has enough OC'ers to fill a class at the local rodeo... ...shocking... I know!

[msims]

These are some of the most badass paddlers from all corners of the globe that came together... think of it as the "U.N."

Does that mean they try to accomplish something and in the end the US just makes a unilateral decision on what the rules are that favour them? KIDDING

I'm just happy to see a single blader in a boat throwing moves in a wave, that impresses me. Who cares if the boat's a mock-up version of a 'real' canoe. I agree with Craig/Jeremy, it's too bad that even in such a small community (cboaters) we have a hard time accepting change (either boat design or rulez) - especially frankly when they mean nothing to most of us (ie we don't compete)...

Jeremy, Craig are you both going to the worlds? I'm hoping to be there Saturday for viewing- will have my wife with me so I likely a) won't stay long, or b) will paddle, but would love to see the competion.

Mshelton, stay on topic, this thread is NOT about adhesives!!

Mike.