knee problem and outfitting

[keez]

I've scoured old posts, but don't see anything that answers the following:
Due to knee problems (getting scoped in 4 weeks.. yeah), I 'm thinking about changing the outfitting in my Spanish Fly from using the footpegs to more of a "C-1" style with ankle blocks. I can get much lower in the boat without the same strain in this position.
How do people who use this method stay in the outfitting, without resorting to a lap belt, if possible? Would adding foam to the back of the seat and hip pads provide the same "loading" and control of the boat as using the footpegs? I know I'll have to change the bulkhead as there will be too much play.
Any advise is appreciated... Don't want to start yaking cause of the knees.
Geoff

[Jim P]

I just either raise the pegs or cut off the bottom half and lay the top of my foot flat on the hull, with the ball of my foot just under the pegs. Lets the knee joint remain more open than having the ball of your foot against the vertical portion of the pegs and still lets you apply pressure to the pegs to stay in the boat. Also a bit easier on the toes and ankles.

Some will point out a risk on entrapment, but the odds of getting pinched under the pegs is a bit remote especially if you are using a bulkhead system with thwarts supporting the saddle, thus reducing the ability of the hull to compress in.

[chris mack]

Hi Geoff,

My knees are bad too, what I have done to help was to raise the footpegs and put my feet flat, as suggested in prev post.....and I have added some ankle blocks to fill in the space between my boat and my legs. I have also raised my seat considerably, I know it feels 'tippy' for a bit but it really helps in the long run.

Oh yeah, lots of N-Acetyl-Glucosamine has helped me.

I have also had success with 'orthovisc/synvisc' injections, you might want to ask your doc about getting them.

Take care
Chris

[sbroam]

No knee probs (yet!) but I paddle with my feet flat in C-1 and OC-1 - it definitely makes the knees (and ankles for me) more comfortable. In OC-1 I do as noted above - in one boat where I didn't want to move the foot peg track up, I cut off the bottom part of the peg. In C-1 I only ever tried foot pegs once and took them out - didn't need them and felt it would pinch my toes. I think you could probably outfit an OC-1 like yours adequately to not need pegs, even with a bulkhead. My Slasher C-1 has a bulkhead and no pegs and I sit as high...

Good luck and keep the C!

[keez]

Thanks for the replies and the suggestion with putting my feet under the foot pegs. Figured you needed something to brace against.
Any problems with pinching of the toes when creeking/hitting rocks in this position?
Geoff

[the great gonzo]

Thanks for the replies and the suggestion with putting my feet under the foot pegs. Figured you needed something to brace against.
Any problems with pinching of the toes when creeking/hitting rocks in this position?
Geoff

Geoff, do NOT put your feet underneath your pegs! If you happen to boof a drop into shallow water or lets say run over shallow rocks (the chickenheads at the bottom of the Otterslide on the Gull come to my mind, for instance, the hull of your boat will flex inward, pinching your foot or toes between the pegs and the hull. This is painful. Been there, done that.

I just use the lap belt.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[philcanoe]

Thanks for the replies and the suggestion with putting my feet under the foot pegs. Figured you needed something to brace against.
Any problems with pinching of the toes when creeking/hitting rocks in this position?
Geoff

Geoff, do NOT put your feet underneath your pegs! If you happen to boof a drop into shallow water or lets say run over shallow rocks (the chickenheads at the bottom of the Otterslide on the Gull come to my mind, for instance, the hull of your boat will flex inward, pinching your foot or toes between the pegs and the hull. This is painful. Been there, done that.

I just use the lap belt.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

Geoff ... I have never experienced the pinch problem, not even off twenty and thirty footers.

My personal approach....

I use the foot OFF to the outside, and then the lying flat under the braces; alternating through out the day. When boofing, running something big, or needing to roll, I simply put my feet back on the foot block (pegs). Maybe that's why no pinch. I find that alternating between the three variations really helps my knees. The main thing that helped my knees the most, was to build up on the saddle. Makes the boat just a little more responsive, you get more effective/dramatic weight transfers (a good thing), and your reach is increased.... just my 2cents worth

[Helly]

on the alternating feet thingy. that helps a lot. I put some foam on the sides of the boat for my ankles to rest on. I know guys seem to like it directly under the ankle, which I don't know how they stand it because it can cut off circulation and crunch on the nerve there.
Instead, and this may just be the way women are built, but I put some thin foam just behind the knee pads to support the leg...that way the pressure is distributed and not fully on the knee.
It works for me anyway.

[the great gonzo]

Thanks for the replies and the suggestion with putting my feet under the foot pegs. Figured you needed something to brace against.
Any problems with pinching of the toes when creeking/hitting rocks in this position?
Geoff

Geoff, do NOT put your feet underneath your pegs! If you happen to boof a drop into shallow water or lets say run over shallow rocks (the chickenheads at the bottom of the Otterslide on the Gull come to my mind, for instance, the hull of your boat will flex inward, pinching your foot or toes between the pegs and the hull. This is painful. Been there, done that.

I just use the lap belt.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

Geoff ... I have never experienced the pinch problem, not even off twenty and thirty footers.

My personal approach....

I use the foot OFF to the outside, and then the lying flat under the braces; alternating through out the day. When boofing, running something big, or needing to roll, I simply put my feet back on the foot block (pegs). Maybe that's why no pinch. I find that alternating between the three variations really helps my knees. The main thing that helped my knees the most, was to build up on the saddle. Makes the boat just a little more responsive, you get more effective/dramatic weight transfers (a good thing), and your reach is increased.... just my 2cents worth

Phil, I guess you have never experienced this because you put your feet on the peg when running big stuff or boofing. I am quite sure if you had left your toes underneath you would probably have experienced that.
I have actually tried a boat once where the owner put plates on his pegs to prevent the toes going under the pegs. He also used ankle blocks , and you pushed woth the toes against the plates. one of the most comfy outfittings I have ever seen. Just don't remember who and what boat it was.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[bearboater]

i haven't ever been able to have toe blocks due to my ankles. and I sometimes fall out of the outfitting, but rarely. I run fairly high straps, and have ankle blocks, as well as shin blocks cut to the shape of my shin, so when I sit in the boat, my legs are pretty much stationary. I am going to add toe blocks, and hip pads to finalize things. and then i really will not move forward or back. I need toe blocks for pivot turns. that's about it. also, you can cut in to the side of the saddle, and this is a more natural position for your knees to bend in. we werent designed to splay out shins out to the side while kneeling, they were meant to be directly under us, in line with the femur.
i have 1 bad knee from a previous cycling injury where I separated my patella from my knee via a triangulated rock at high impact. and the other has developed a .5 inch calcium deposit right at the top of my tib/fib due to paddling. I run about a 3.5 inch saddle, and I can do like 5 hours of paddling ( two sessions a day) with proper stretching, and taking breaks almost exactly on the hour.
I think will power to stay in the boat also helps for rolling, and proper hip angulation helps on everything else...
but I do recommend hip blocks to secure your hips, it also helps prevent the issue of butt sliding up and back out of the seat. boat/body contact is the name of the game.
cheers
-isaac

[Jim P]

Yep, been pinched a couple of times. Banged my knuckles on the gunnels, hit my head and shoulders on rocks, scraped all the skin off my knuckles setting up to to roll, scraped skin off my shins when swimming, fallen down at the put in. But I'm still willin, to keep on boating.

[John Coraor]

Geoff:

Another option is just to move your toe blocks back a tad, so that only the tips of your toes touch them when your foot is flat (either with or without ankle blocks). All you really need in the way of toe blocks is something to push against if your knees and thighs start to back out of the braces.

I don't use toe blocks in my current boat as my thigh straps are high enough to keep me in without them. However, in earlier C-boats, I used foam bulkheads without thigh straps and for those I needed some kind of toe blocks to press against to keep my knees engaged in the bulkhead. Those boats were outfitted with suspended seats rather than pedestals and my feet would lie flat under my seat, with the toes of both feet coming together on the end of the stern wall, which was cut at the right point to serve as the toe block. Using the stern pillar as toe blocks probably won't work with a pedestal, but moving your toe blocks further back should give you same ability to push off with your toes only when needed without pinching them.

John

[Craig Smerda]

One option... make canted toe blocks (footpegs) in place of the 90 degree footpegs. Another option... foam ankle blocks and foam hip grabbers.

Personally... I like to be locked in with my pegs though.

[keez]

Thanks for the advise everyone.
As there's no water, looks like I'm spending the weekend in the garage with a case of beer and some closed cell foam.
Geoff