Are there any WW OC1s that would be halfway decent for paddling flat water and for packing enough stuff to river camp for a couple of days on either WW or flat water? Capable of running solid class II and limited class III stuff, manueverable enough for the not-steep-creeking stuff, and not be a total bear for paddling longer stretches of the bigger flat stuff? I do sometimes paddle my Dagger Rival on flatwater. I have no problem keeping up with the flatwater boats but the saddle gets to be very tiring compared with kneeling in my other boats with bench seats. And the wind does affect the WW Dagger much more than my other non WW solo canoes.
I am thinking specs something like 12 to 14 feet long, 2.5 to 3 inches of rocker on bow and stern, enough side height to not be too wet but not so high as to be too affected by the wind, outfitting probably limited to seat and knee pads, weight 50 pounds or less, royalex or kevlar.
Thinking through the boats I am familiar with I come up with with the Bell Prodigy X from the WW side and the Bell Flashfire and Wildfire from the flat water side of the coin. I have a Flashfire -- a great boat that handles lighter WW well, but I expect it would be very wet on solid Class II stuff due to its low sides. I have heard comments tha the Esquif Vertige might fit the bill. And Mohawk may have some hulls that might fit this hybrid category by not fitting WW or flat water particularly well but are acceptable for the faster "flat whitewater" where a true WW hull might be overkill.
Any thoughts about a good compromise craft? Seems like there should be a market for such a boat. And meeting such a demand with some decent designs and not some of the "nuubed down" rec hulls might help to recruit more people into WW open boating once they get a feel for faster moving water.
Adam, thank you for getting me reregistered.
WW/Flatwater Hybrid OC1 ???
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
John Winters Osprey is what you are describing. You can buy it from Swift http://www.swiftcanoe.com/canoe/solo/osprey.htm
or get plans from Green Valley http://www.greenval.com/osprey.html
It's easily as manuverable as the Wildfire and MUCH dryer.
Not a boat for technical class IIIs but quite happy in big wavetrains. It's not fast compared to marathon boats but it takes very little effort to move it along at 3 - 4 mph. It attains quite nicely as well.
I only wish it came in Royalex.
or get plans from Green Valley http://www.greenval.com/osprey.html
It's easily as manuverable as the Wildfire and MUCH dryer.
Not a boat for technical class IIIs but quite happy in big wavetrains. It's not fast compared to marathon boats but it takes very little effort to move it along at 3 - 4 mph. It attains quite nicely as well.
I only wish it came in Royalex.
Osprey
TommyT
Good pick there with the Osprey. Funny too, because I used to own one! That was before I had developed my skills enough to appreciate what I had. I bought it partly on its looks -- what a beautiful boat! I hated to put a scratch in it so I sold it! My attitude about that has changed 180.
But, to be a little more critical about the specs on the Osprey, the rocker is only 1.5 inches on bow and 1 inch on the stern. This does not match my idea about having a minimum rocker of 2.5 inches on both bow and stern (which my Flashfire and I think the original Wildfire had). Interestingly, the Swift ad classifies the Osprey as being "heavily" rockered. And the length of the Osprey at 15 feet is bigger than what I was thinking too. Still it is a hades of a good boat.
So, why have some of these boats not been made into royalex versions? Is there too much lost in translation? Bell seems to have lost some good design features in making the royalex Yellowstone Solo out of the composite Wildfire.
What is the chance of Esquif making some nice Twintex hybrid solo boats? Seems like it would be a good fit and price competitive with the composite models.
Good pick there with the Osprey. Funny too, because I used to own one! That was before I had developed my skills enough to appreciate what I had. I bought it partly on its looks -- what a beautiful boat! I hated to put a scratch in it so I sold it! My attitude about that has changed 180.
But, to be a little more critical about the specs on the Osprey, the rocker is only 1.5 inches on bow and 1 inch on the stern. This does not match my idea about having a minimum rocker of 2.5 inches on both bow and stern (which my Flashfire and I think the original Wildfire had). Interestingly, the Swift ad classifies the Osprey as being "heavily" rockered. And the length of the Osprey at 15 feet is bigger than what I was thinking too. Still it is a hades of a good boat.
So, why have some of these boats not been made into royalex versions? Is there too much lost in translation? Bell seems to have lost some good design features in making the royalex Yellowstone Solo out of the composite Wildfire.
What is the chance of Esquif making some nice Twintex hybrid solo boats? Seems like it would be a good fit and price competitive with the composite models.
spanning the gap
I have been happy with my Nova craft supper nova for river tripping and combined flatwater/whitewater tripping up to class III. Surfs great, spins well, and comes in royalex/kevlar. I knew a guy who moved his seat back a touch and put a saddle and straps in front of it so he could do both. Very forgiving boat too.
Specs 14'10", 58 lbs Rx, 48 lbs kevlar, 32 inch beam, 2.5 inches of rocker
Here is what novacraft says on there websight
"The Supernova was designed as the ideal solution for the paddler who loves to do solo wilderness river trips. While the Supernova hull characteristics do what you'd expect from a white water boat – like keep you dry and effortlessly surf a wave – where you really appreciate the canoe is the flat water sections in between the frothy stuff.
The Supernova would be most appreciated by experienced paddlers who enjoy messing around in rapids.
Even though it comes to life in the rough stuff, it retains enough of a quiet nature that it won't feel out of place for a casual paddle on the local pond. In the hands of a competent paddler the Supernova is an excellent dance partner."
Good luck,
jc
Specs 14'10", 58 lbs Rx, 48 lbs kevlar, 32 inch beam, 2.5 inches of rocker
Here is what novacraft says on there websight
"The Supernova was designed as the ideal solution for the paddler who loves to do solo wilderness river trips. While the Supernova hull characteristics do what you'd expect from a white water boat – like keep you dry and effortlessly surf a wave – where you really appreciate the canoe is the flat water sections in between the frothy stuff.
The Supernova would be most appreciated by experienced paddlers who enjoy messing around in rapids.
Even though it comes to life in the rough stuff, it retains enough of a quiet nature that it won't feel out of place for a casual paddle on the local pond. In the hands of a competent paddler the Supernova is an excellent dance partner."
Good luck,
jc
That's what I use my Kevlar Rendezvous for. It requires some planning for class III, but will outperform just about anything else from flatwater through class II.
My info can be found at http://www.canoecolorado.com/canoeing/w ... rendezvous
The NovaCraft SuperNova also comes to mind. It's slower than the 'vous, but more comfortable in bigger water. The We-no-nah Wilderness, Argosy and Bell Yellowstone Solo fall into the same river touring category.
My old C-1W would also run class III, but you better be a dam good paddler to keep her upright in conditions and she wouldn't turn unless you were on the crest of a wave.
Some tests I did a few years back are at: http://www.canoecolorado.com/canoeing/compare/soloriver
My info can be found at http://www.canoecolorado.com/canoeing/w ... rendezvous
The NovaCraft SuperNova also comes to mind. It's slower than the 'vous, but more comfortable in bigger water. The We-no-nah Wilderness, Argosy and Bell Yellowstone Solo fall into the same river touring category.
My old C-1W would also run class III, but you better be a dam good paddler to keep her upright in conditions and she wouldn't turn unless you were on the crest of a wave.
Some tests I did a few years back are at: http://www.canoecolorado.com/canoeing/compare/soloriver
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Jon Serfas
- C Boater
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Marc Evans
- C Guru
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- Location: Pullman, Washington
Lou:
What about an Esquif Pocket Canyon? This is apparently a new production for Esquif, but it looks to be on the market soon. The boat is 14.5 feet long with 4 inches of bow and stern rocker and it is made in royalex. http://www.esquif.com/2008/canot_en.php?id=28.
Another possibility would be a Mohawk XL13 or XL14. These boats are 13'3" and 14'3" long, respectively and have 3" of bow and stern rocker. http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/whitewater.htm.
Now, if anyone out there has tried an Esquif Mistral (16' long, 51 pounds and made of twin-tex), I'd like to hear what you think. My aging bones would like a lighter recreation type canoe to replace my Oldtown Discovery 169 (85 pounds). Also, I like a boat that turns.
Marc
What about an Esquif Pocket Canyon? This is apparently a new production for Esquif, but it looks to be on the market soon. The boat is 14.5 feet long with 4 inches of bow and stern rocker and it is made in royalex. http://www.esquif.com/2008/canot_en.php?id=28.
Another possibility would be a Mohawk XL13 or XL14. These boats are 13'3" and 14'3" long, respectively and have 3" of bow and stern rocker. http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/whitewater.htm.
Now, if anyone out there has tried an Esquif Mistral (16' long, 51 pounds and made of twin-tex), I'd like to hear what you think. My aging bones would like a lighter recreation type canoe to replace my Oldtown Discovery 169 (85 pounds). Also, I like a boat that turns.
Marc
Lou, maybe you need to work on that saddle. My pedestal in my WW cruiser is very comfortable, and I find it better for power application than kneeling on the bench seats in my flatwater boats.
Straps too tight? Pedestal need to be higher? Do you need knee (separator) wedges to keep your knees comfortable? Knee cups not feeling "neutral" as far as locating your knees? Using those dreadful footbraces? Work through these issues and you may find you want pedestals in ALL your boats.
Straps too tight? Pedestal need to be higher? Do you need knee (separator) wedges to keep your knees comfortable? Knee cups not feeling "neutral" as far as locating your knees? Using those dreadful footbraces? Work through these issues and you may find you want pedestals in ALL your boats.
Wow! Thanks!
A wealth of good information in this short thread! Thanks to all of you.
Gave me a chance to review and reconsider some boats. The Canoe Colorado reviews are particularly helpful.
I need to work on my outfitting in my WW boat too. My first move will be adding some ankle support.
Gave me a chance to review and reconsider some boats. The Canoe Colorado reviews are particularly helpful.
I need to work on my outfitting in my WW boat too. My first move will be adding some ankle support.
I can't say enough about the wildfire.. er yellowstone solo. It is a very capable boat if bagged out. It can paddle well on flat water as well, though a composite rendezvous is hard to beat fo the combo boat. Those would be the 2 that Iwould recomend. I have spent a fair amount of time in both these boats and think they are great options. I would say if you plan on putting gear in the boat go for the rendezvous, if not I personally think the yell solo is more nimble for moving water though the vous is faster straight ahead, this may be obvious. Anyway they are both great.
B
B
Evergreen Specs for the Sunburst
Dan,
Evergreen's website, http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_sunburst_ii.html , shows that this boat has only 1.5 inches of rocker. Is this the same as the original version? If it is, was this the norm back then and when did more rocker start entering the picture for WW boats? I also notice that the side view of this boat on the Evergreen site
is very similar to the Mad River Guide, now Freedom Solo: http://madrivercanoe.com/freedom-solo
The Guide/Freedom has 2.5 inches of rocker.
Evergreen's website, http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_sunburst_ii.html , shows that this boat has only 1.5 inches of rocker. Is this the same as the original version? If it is, was this the norm back then and when did more rocker start entering the picture for WW boats? I also notice that the side view of this boat on the Evergreen site
is very similar to the Mad River Guide, now Freedom Solo: http://madrivercanoe.com/freedom-solo
The Guide/Freedom has 2.5 inches of rocker.
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Paddle Power
- C Maven
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- Contact:
I'll second/vote for the Sunburst.
Brian
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a little bit far from you, but my prototype Cobra (not the production one in the picture below) is available. A little bit narrow (25") but flat-bottomed. Its straight-line speed enabled me to be the 3rd fastest 13' boat at the 2001 Slalom Nationals. Weighs about 32 lbs.
Cobra
Cobra
Bob P
Lou,
While the Evergreen site says the Sunburst has 1.5" of rocker, it actually has about 3". Their specs are way off - I don't know why. I owned an Evergreen Sunburst and paddled it for 1000's of km whitewater river tripping. The only disadvantage you might find of the boat is it's depth. While it keeps you dry the 22" ends and 16" center depth can catch the wind.
I've also paddled an MR Guide/Freedom - the boats are nothing alike. The Sunburst is the better boat for WW. I also have an Esquif Vertige. I haven't used the boat for any extended flatwater yet, but I plan to use this boat as my next WW river tripper.
While the Evergreen site says the Sunburst has 1.5" of rocker, it actually has about 3". Their specs are way off - I don't know why. I owned an Evergreen Sunburst and paddled it for 1000's of km whitewater river tripping. The only disadvantage you might find of the boat is it's depth. While it keeps you dry the 22" ends and 16" center depth can catch the wind.
I've also paddled an MR Guide/Freedom - the boats are nothing alike. The Sunburst is the better boat for WW. I also have an Esquif Vertige. I haven't used the boat for any extended flatwater yet, but I plan to use this boat as my next WW river tripper.