how to convert a pool roll to a combat roll
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Concentrating on technique, a very good method. Although a matter of personal preference, I quit setting up with my t-grip in my stomach a few years back after getting the blade hit by a rock and punching the air out of me. Now I set up alongside my hip to avoid this. Although it has little effect on the roll itself, this idea might help to avoid getting the air knocked out of you.
roll
dude relax. take a few moments undernear to go threw the process in you r mind. helps you not rush your set up which is every thing. set up. reach and stretch extra hard for the off side of your boat and place your forehead on the back of your hand and pop up. the extra waiting time helps you flush out from an upstream roll as well. if i am in a open boat with alot of rocker i give half a roll to make sure i am under the boat and up to the right set up possition.JIM
do exactly like knu2xs said - count 1,2,3...knu2xs wrote:The way I overcame this was simply the drill outlined above, to intentionally turn over in a safe location, then once upside down, count to ten by seconds, one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, etc. Then calmly roll. Usually this was a part of a benign playspot. Once I got bored, ready to get off the wave, I just flipped.
next just like jim said... mentally run through each step in your mind before doing anything - I need to tuck, and then I need to get my paddle way up..., and then I extended... and I ... and so on
then and only then... let it happen
just like knu2xs and 'Jim Gross' said... slow and cognitive
and remember you have time to do all this- over again - two or three times
until you can start to have complete cognitive mental thought processing, there will be a problem... when I'm in class II-III (or even easy IV) I'll often not roll, just doesn't bother me enough to...but when in something with consequence, my mental clarity takes over - and the thought processes become clear... and then my roll works... the I need to roll here is heard, and as Mr Neely said, "No impure thoughts"
just keep your mind in control, you know what to do if it works in a pool...of course rolling upstream will still be more difficult than a pool, but with downstream current it's easier
of course now that I've said that... sometimes it really does help to continue to use motion of the flip... instead of having to over-come inertia
The pool is closed for easter holliday (it's a pool at the university). Next week I'll put on my old dry-top and I plan to buy a cheap PFD. Not too much uplift, but uplift anyhow. I'll go and search for the improvement with that gear on in the pool.
I believe that is part of the problem.
Next I'll have to find a sweet spot to train the roll on moving water, and stay CLAM
.
I did get the air punched out of me a couple of times. Paddle hit the bottom, then hit me. It did also hurt my wrist and ... .
Anyway, I usually don't setup with the paddle in front of me. I do the setup as if you do when starting from a low brace, but the paddle in the same position as in the "new style roll" -low brace-. If you get what I mean.
Normally I'll be out on the flatwater this weekend. If water temperatures are not too low, I'll give it a try with the drysuit and the pfd on. And I might take an easier boat to roll, just to get started.
I believe that is part of the problem.
Next I'll have to find a sweet spot to train the roll on moving water, and stay CLAM
.I did get the air punched out of me a couple of times. Paddle hit the bottom, then hit me. It did also hurt my wrist and ... .
Anyway, I usually don't setup with the paddle in front of me. I do the setup as if you do when starting from a low brace, but the paddle in the same position as in the "new style roll" -low brace-. If you get what I mean.
Normally I'll be out on the flatwater this weekend. If water temperatures are not too low, I'll give it a try with the drysuit and the pfd on. And I might take an easier boat to roll, just to get started.
I'll have to take it back to the swimming pool... 
I don't know what I do wrong, but I don't manage to roll with the drysuit on, even after I took of the PFD. I have to test now if I still can roll without all those things.
Must be a technique issue, but I have no idea yet what I'm doing wrong...
I hope I find it soon.
I don't know what I do wrong, but I don't manage to roll with the drysuit on, even after I took of the PFD. I have to test now if I still can roll without all those things.
Must be a technique issue, but I have no idea yet what I'm doing wrong...
I hope I find it soon.
I have some video work, some older. I'll try to bring the camera to the pool on wednesday. And I will take an el-cheepo PFD and dry-top to test the difference.
I'll let you guys know when it's online.
It's kind of frustrating, knowing to have a decent roll (or at least I get back up) in the pool, and failing with drysuit on.
That's probably the same reason why I failed my roll on the river too.
I'll let you guys know when it's online.
It's kind of frustrating, knowing to have a decent roll (or at least I get back up) in the pool, and failing with drysuit on.
That's probably the same reason why I failed my roll on the river too.
Suggestion
This is my theory... at least this is/was the case with me...
When I'd roll on river, I was suffering from , "getupgetup gottagetup now".... so i'd rush my roll, and not realizing I'm doing too much at once, hip snap, sweep, head out of water.... I think the main reason why our roll fails is we bring our head up earlier to grasp for air, because we're in a panic...
So... here's a couple things that I'm trying to remember, to overcome the exact same problem.
1. Wait a few seconds before rolling. If you flip in current and try to roll right away, if you're moving at a different speed than the current, the current could work against you...so wait, until you're moving w/ the current. Then in-current rolls, when you're going the same speed as the current would be more similar to flatwater. Kind of like walking with the wind... "hey it's not so windy!"
2. Split your roll into two phases.
-->The hip snap. Do your hip snap and focus on righting your boat... concentrate hard here, no low sweeping brace yet! Keep the paddle on the surface and focus on kissing your boat side.
-->The sweep. Remember the sweep goes right over your gunnels. don't reward yourself with a breath until you've consciously completed the sweep.
When I'm in current I tend to forget that these two things are essentially distinct. It's easier to forget that in a pool when you just muscle your roll up...
Of course this is all theory until i get into moving water this week!
Good luck.
Mike
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When I'd roll on river, I was suffering from , "getupgetup gottagetup now".... so i'd rush my roll, and not realizing I'm doing too much at once, hip snap, sweep, head out of water.... I think the main reason why our roll fails is we bring our head up earlier to grasp for air, because we're in a panic...
So... here's a couple things that I'm trying to remember, to overcome the exact same problem.
1. Wait a few seconds before rolling. If you flip in current and try to roll right away, if you're moving at a different speed than the current, the current could work against you...so wait, until you're moving w/ the current. Then in-current rolls, when you're going the same speed as the current would be more similar to flatwater. Kind of like walking with the wind... "hey it's not so windy!"
2. Split your roll into two phases.
-->The hip snap. Do your hip snap and focus on righting your boat... concentrate hard here, no low sweeping brace yet! Keep the paddle on the surface and focus on kissing your boat side.
-->The sweep. Remember the sweep goes right over your gunnels. don't reward yourself with a breath until you've consciously completed the sweep.
When I'm in current I tend to forget that these two things are essentially distinct. It's easier to forget that in a pool when you just muscle your roll up...
Of course this is all theory until i get into moving water this week!
Good luck.Mike
________
Arizona Medical Marijuana Dispensaries
Last edited by msims on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have the kent-ford dvd's drill time - solo playboating. I'm interested in bob foote's "open canoe roll" as well. But anyone who has a clue how to get it delivered to europe/belgium? whitewatervideo.com does not deliver to belgium, a couple others don't deliver to europe either... ?
I'm watching some youtube fragments of a roll now, trying to find what they do different in comparison to what I do. I'll try to remember to video the attempts tomorrow. But for now I think I don't have enough "hip" and too many "brace".
I'm watching some youtube fragments of a roll now, trying to find what they do different in comparison to what I do
. I'll try to remember to video the attempts tomorrow. But for now I think I don't have enough "hip" and too many "brace".OK, forgot to take the camera inside, so no video material. Though I found my problems and I did roll with my drysuit and PFD on.
The issues:
- I have a pretty heavy PFD (110N uplift) so lots of foam on the chest. Pulling in the paddle is hindered by the pfd for someone who's used to roll without.
- the drysuit/drytop is actually slowing down the move!
- With pfd I tend to raise my head too soon, no idea why
- the paddle is too deep in the water, not even near the surface.
I also changed the technique a bit. I used to have a long continuous bracing phase, from setup to finish, with a stretched upper arm to start. That works great when not wearing a pfd, but the movement is hindered when wearing one.
I now moved to a short bracing - hip snap - finalising brace movement.
Or at least, try to move to that kind of move. Let's say I have a 50% success in the pool with my pfd on. The times I fail, I really mess it up and have to swim.
A few more pool-sessions and I might get somewhere.
Thank you all for the input!
The issues:
- I have a pretty heavy PFD (110N uplift) so lots of foam on the chest. Pulling in the paddle is hindered by the pfd for someone who's used to roll without.
- the drysuit/drytop is actually slowing down the move!
- With pfd I tend to raise my head too soon, no idea why
- the paddle is too deep in the water, not even near the surface.
I also changed the technique a bit. I used to have a long continuous bracing phase, from setup to finish, with a stretched upper arm to start. That works great when not wearing a pfd, but the movement is hindered when wearing one.
I now moved to a short bracing - hip snap - finalising brace movement.
Or at least, try to move to that kind of move. Let's say I have a 50% success in the pool with my pfd on. The times I fail, I really mess it up and have to swim.
A few more pool-sessions and I might get somewhere
.Thank you all for the input!
Reliable river roll
I don't know to what extent you've tried this, but i think that the best way to get a super reliable roll is to get in a play boat and practice flat-water play moves (cartwheels, etc...). When you are learning to do play moves you are constantly flipping in really unexpected positions so it more accurately simulates the suddenness of flipping on a river feature. it also really helps to flip when you are not in the set up position (i.e. leaning back) because on the river you hardly ever flip in the position that you roll in. wearing the drysuit is probably a good idea too. hope this was helpful.
I've been playing in the pool. No cartweels, but tilting to extremities, carving to extremities, off-side tilt-turns, that kind of stuff.
I did put on my dry-top, ok, a bit slower roll, but still manageble.
I bought an el-cheapo PFD, 70N uplift. I roll the canoe, not as reliable, but I manage.
I was out on an artificial whitewater base. tried to roll in a flatwater part. OK, not strapped in, but I miserably failed.
I'm waiting for the time to get better. Then I can try without drysuit but with heavy PFD on -don't like to take that to the pool with all the chlorine and stuff-.
I did put on my dry-top, ok, a bit slower roll, but still manageble.
I bought an el-cheapo PFD, 70N uplift. I roll the canoe, not as reliable, but I manage.
I was out on an artificial whitewater base. tried to roll in a flatwater part. OK, not strapped in, but I miserably failed.
I'm waiting for the time to get better. Then I can try without drysuit but with heavy PFD on -don't like to take that to the pool with all the chlorine and stuff-.
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Hey jakke
I'm sorry if I repeat something altready said by others (don't have the time now to read all again)
but here are my experiences:
I know your situation pretty well. I have a very reliable pool roll, but in whitewater it (though it got better) still fails sometimes, especially in turbulent currents. in the summer I hardly swam anymore, but having had no rolling practice during winter (sorry, but it was way too cold with snwo at the river banks...), the first attempts in warm water failed! How frustrated I was :cry:
What to do now for us?
1) have some patience: it is quite normal that the step from pool roll to reliable combat roll takes 2 or 3 years (at least, that's what my folks tell) And: consider, you're rolling an open canoe, this is the hardest stuff ever!
2) practice!!!!! first in quiet river (flatwater), then in current, then in turbulent water, get in holes and so on.
3)try several times, don't exit at the first failed attempt
4) stay under water for a while and get used to the feeling, say "21" before the setup. Often, during this time, the canoe is lying more quiet on the water surface and is easier to roll than in the first turbulence after falling in
5)analyse, why you fail and work on it. With me, I often got out quickly without even trying. Then I thought about it and found out: I can't controll the situation hanging head down, so my instinct part of the brain got panicked and made me exit so I had at least a bit control when swimming. (I know, as a swimmer, you have few control, but still more than hanging upside down).
What I will do now is exercising to stay calm under water , get used to the situation and doing automatically the steps I have learned in the quiet water. And do a second or third attempt, if the first fails. With the time the roll will also in turbulent water get so safe I can rely on it, also in whitewater.
Hope I could help you a bit
P.S.:
sorry for my bad english, I'm no native speaker and in canoe related/familiar language there'se still a lot vocabulary missing!
I'm sorry if I repeat something altready said by others (don't have the time now to read all again)
but here are my experiences:
I know your situation pretty well. I have a very reliable pool roll, but in whitewater it (though it got better) still fails sometimes, especially in turbulent currents. in the summer I hardly swam anymore, but having had no rolling practice during winter (sorry, but it was way too cold with snwo at the river banks...), the first attempts in warm water failed! How frustrated I was :cry:
What to do now for us?
1) have some patience: it is quite normal that the step from pool roll to reliable combat roll takes 2 or 3 years (at least, that's what my folks tell) And: consider, you're rolling an open canoe, this is the hardest stuff ever!
2) practice!!!!! first in quiet river (flatwater), then in current, then in turbulent water, get in holes and so on.
3)try several times, don't exit at the first failed attempt
4) stay under water for a while and get used to the feeling, say "21" before the setup. Often, during this time, the canoe is lying more quiet on the water surface and is easier to roll than in the first turbulence after falling in
5)analyse, why you fail and work on it. With me, I often got out quickly without even trying. Then I thought about it and found out: I can't controll the situation hanging head down, so my instinct part of the brain got panicked and made me exit so I had at least a bit control when swimming. (I know, as a swimmer, you have few control, but still more than hanging upside down).
What I will do now is exercising to stay calm under water , get used to the situation and doing automatically the steps I have learned in the quiet water. And do a second or third attempt, if the first fails. With the time the roll will also in turbulent water get so safe I can rely on it, also in whitewater.
Hope I could help you a bit
P.S.:
sorry for my bad english, I'm no native speaker and in canoe related/familiar language there'se still a lot vocabulary missing!
it's gettin hot
I MAKE THE WATER BURN
purple orange flames
blaze where I put my paddle
I MAKE THE WATER BURN
purple orange flames
blaze where I put my paddle
I've been struggling for 1.30h yesterday...
But I think I finally found the clue! Though body position is totally different for me, when wearing a PFD or not. With pfd I manage best doing old-style setup aka high-brace start. Without pfd, I prefer the nez style -low brace all the way- setup.
Anyway, I do work my knees when rolling; but what I "forget" is to "pull up my legs" so I pull my boat under me. And I should focus more on a proper finalisation of my roll.
Because of the lack of pulling and the fact I'm floating more, I also tend to raise my head to soon, spoiling the roll.
I took me a while to figure out what I did wrong, now it probably take even longer to make it an automatism! But one day, I will roll it.
But I think I finally found the clue! Though body position is totally different for me, when wearing a PFD or not. With pfd I manage best doing old-style setup aka high-brace start. Without pfd, I prefer the nez style -low brace all the way- setup.
Anyway, I do work my knees when rolling; but what I "forget" is to "pull up my legs" so I pull my boat under me. And I should focus more on a proper finalisation of my roll.
Because of the lack of pulling and the fact I'm floating more, I also tend to raise my head to soon, spoiling the roll.
I took me a while to figure out what I did wrong, now it probably take even longer to make it an automatism! But one day, I will roll it.
ok, digging up an old topic, but no need to start a new one on this.
Pool season has started again and I learned some things:
- my setup with eyes closed is crap. My paddle sinks to deep and it costs a lot of effort to get up. That really needs practice!
- I do rely too much on the paddle blade for my roll, and certainly too soon. I have to "unteach" myself that!
- I'm rolling with a piece of foam instead of a paddle now, and I have the same problem as I have with my pfd and drysuit on. Sometimes I roll without a problem, sometimes I just don't make it. I haven't found yet why not. But I keep "foam-rolling"
- I did not do a good job swinging my head to the other side and thus no torso rotation and thus no weight on the offside knee and thus a sloppy recovery. -> this was actually discovered by a buttboater watching my. Great thanks to him!
- I should really roll over, there is a huge setup difference between a complete roll, or tipping to your onside and setting up with a low brace.
One day I'll roll, but for now I'm still searching the mistakes. I know how a good roll feels like (I did a couple of them in the past). Unfortunatly I did not remember how to do it.
Pool season has started again and I learned some things:
- my setup with eyes closed is crap. My paddle sinks to deep and it costs a lot of effort to get up. That really needs practice!
- I do rely too much on the paddle blade for my roll, and certainly too soon. I have to "unteach" myself that!
- I'm rolling with a piece of foam instead of a paddle now, and I have the same problem as I have with my pfd and drysuit on. Sometimes I roll without a problem, sometimes I just don't make it. I haven't found yet why not. But I keep "foam-rolling"
- I did not do a good job swinging my head to the other side and thus no torso rotation and thus no weight on the offside knee and thus a sloppy recovery. -> this was actually discovered by a buttboater watching my. Great thanks to him!
- I should really roll over, there is a huge setup difference between a complete roll, or tipping to your onside and setting up with a low brace.
One day I'll roll, but for now I'm still searching the mistakes. I know how a good roll feels like (I did a couple of them in the past). Unfortunatly I did not remember how to do it.