Hey All,
Anyone have much experience paddling big water in a c-boat? I paddled the Main Payette at about 10k cfs this weekend. I got the feeling that if I want to run anything harder (Lochsa at higher levels, etc.) I am really going to need to learn how to link offside strokes confidently. Any tips on linking cross strokes or other important big water skills? It is amazing how much fun I had in the Big EZ this weekend on stuff that would have bored me stiff in a raft.
I finally made some rolls. 4 combat rolls and no swims!
We'll see how I do on the Salmon at 55k+ this weekend. Some of the eddylines, boils, and whirlpools look scary.
Gabe
Big Water C1 pointers needed
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
-
oopsiflipped
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:32 am
Big water
Way to go, Gabe! Knew the roll would come along.
On big water the secret is anticipating so you can keep your strong side where you want it. However, you are exactly correct that the offside must be used as a POWER stroke.
A lot of people have a weaker offside stroke than onside. It shouldn't be.
To develop a strong offside, you have to lean out front and plant the blade. Then, draw it back NO FURTHER than the front of your body. To lift the blade to make another stroke, or switch to onside, you have to learn to feather the blade correctly. Turn the wrist to the outside (i.e. bring the knuckles toward the boat). Then, when the blade is parallel to the boat, you lift it forward and out of the water with the lower hand and push it forward or pull it across the boat (if you're going onside).
This is one of the hardest moves to learn, but it's vital to a quick recovery from the offside stroke.
Go here: http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/view-c ... p?skill=40 and click the video link to see a short video. There is only one offside in it (Look at the forward strokes, too, and see how short they are), but it is a good one. Study it for good technique.
When making the offside forward stroke, it is very helpful to use the top hand for most of your power. PUSH! with the top hand. The bottom hand moves very little.
Another secret to big water is to paddle less. Let the boat stall briefly at the top of waves so you can see what's ahead. Then power off the wave in the direction you want. Anticipate a long way ahead.
Wish I could get to Wenatchee to help you guys on technique, but don't think I can. If that changes, I'll let you know.
Bill
On big water the secret is anticipating so you can keep your strong side where you want it. However, you are exactly correct that the offside must be used as a POWER stroke.
A lot of people have a weaker offside stroke than onside. It shouldn't be.
To develop a strong offside, you have to lean out front and plant the blade. Then, draw it back NO FURTHER than the front of your body. To lift the blade to make another stroke, or switch to onside, you have to learn to feather the blade correctly. Turn the wrist to the outside (i.e. bring the knuckles toward the boat). Then, when the blade is parallel to the boat, you lift it forward and out of the water with the lower hand and push it forward or pull it across the boat (if you're going onside).
This is one of the hardest moves to learn, but it's vital to a quick recovery from the offside stroke.
Go here: http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/view-c ... p?skill=40 and click the video link to see a short video. There is only one offside in it (Look at the forward strokes, too, and see how short they are), but it is a good one. Study it for good technique.
When making the offside forward stroke, it is very helpful to use the top hand for most of your power. PUSH! with the top hand. The bottom hand moves very little.
Another secret to big water is to paddle less. Let the boat stall briefly at the top of waves so you can see what's ahead. Then power off the wave in the direction you want. Anticipate a long way ahead.
Wish I could get to Wenatchee to help you guys on technique, but don't think I can. If that changes, I'll let you know.
Bill
Re: Big water
Hmmm. Seems I have heard that same advice before.billhay4 wrote: To develop a strong offside, you have to lean out front and plant the blade. Then, draw it back NO FURTHER than the front of your body.
Oh yeah! It was at First Break AND at Pipeline on the James! 
Good advice never changes.KNeal
C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
openboater talking, but might help
like skiing moguls... you're always looking two or three moves/waves ahead.. you are doing what's required for where you're are, because you already knew what had to be done - because you were there mentally, but now you're already ahead thinking of what's to come.. the bigger the water, the further you have to plan for
in waves as a rule of thumb, I generally like to make a move at the top of a wave... almost lifting the boat up and out of the water with a jerk, as if my body and momentum are peaking with the wave... then you can pick the direction, and charge to where you want to go... your choice... this is also the best place to see what's going on, planning for what's next, and validating that you're still aok
for me in powerful current... i generally like to keep my paddle in the water a good bit more than in less powerful water... not all tensed up, but more loose and relaxed, so you can react quicker
the bigger the water, the more you have to watch for squirrelly water, which usually is less out there in the middle of everything... and more prevalent when sneaking around trying to miss something, or at the bottom
and IMHO you either have to be going slower or faster than the current to be in control, and if not in control - you're screwed... so charge full steam ahead.... or start backstroking into a ferry... or even spinning around, to give the boat some momentum, spinning into the start of a ferry can be really effective... in other words get back in control and get going to where you need be...personally I like to be a little slower, relative to the current, than faster (it's easier, and you have more planning time)... that spinning can be effective on that sneaky hole, with noway out i've spun around - the long way around (270degrees) and used the extra mo. to break on thru to the other side
boat placement is also more critical, if on the outside of a turn it's harder to get across to the inside... while if on the inside of a bend, it's easier to go with the flow to the far side... also it's further to get the side from dead center... so consequently in unknown territory, I usually like to stay a third off to one side, and then go center once the coast is clear... this really helps once the flood starts picking up the big trees
oh .. without having to say, be on the lookout for what creates a big hole
like skiing moguls... you're always looking two or three moves/waves ahead.. you are doing what's required for where you're are, because you already knew what had to be done - because you were there mentally, but now you're already ahead thinking of what's to come.. the bigger the water, the further you have to plan for
in waves as a rule of thumb, I generally like to make a move at the top of a wave... almost lifting the boat up and out of the water with a jerk, as if my body and momentum are peaking with the wave... then you can pick the direction, and charge to where you want to go... your choice... this is also the best place to see what's going on, planning for what's next, and validating that you're still aok
for me in powerful current... i generally like to keep my paddle in the water a good bit more than in less powerful water... not all tensed up, but more loose and relaxed, so you can react quicker
the bigger the water, the more you have to watch for squirrelly water, which usually is less out there in the middle of everything... and more prevalent when sneaking around trying to miss something, or at the bottom
and IMHO you either have to be going slower or faster than the current to be in control, and if not in control - you're screwed... so charge full steam ahead.... or start backstroking into a ferry... or even spinning around, to give the boat some momentum, spinning into the start of a ferry can be really effective... in other words get back in control and get going to where you need be...personally I like to be a little slower, relative to the current, than faster (it's easier, and you have more planning time)... that spinning can be effective on that sneaky hole, with noway out i've spun around - the long way around (270degrees) and used the extra mo. to break on thru to the other side
boat placement is also more critical, if on the outside of a turn it's harder to get across to the inside... while if on the inside of a bend, it's easier to go with the flow to the far side... also it's further to get the side from dead center... so consequently in unknown territory, I usually like to stay a third off to one side, and then go center once the coast is clear... this really helps once the flood starts picking up the big trees
oh .. without having to say, be on the lookout for what creates a big hole
-
oopsiflipped
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:32 am
I'm not the best but, keeping the blade in the water helps with balance and keeps you from being knocked over by a surprise exploding wave. Use a slicing recovery onside or on your offside (power face toward the boat) t grip thumb forward. Watch out for eddy fences, and boil lines that make it harder to eddy out or peel out. Look for holes downstream from the peaks of the waves, sometimes you cant see them, but you can see the slack current downstream of them. If you are not gonna avoid the hole go for the weak spot (where there is more flow below the recirculation) Watching slalom videos has also been a big help for me.
-
sbroam
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 3969
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:12 am
- Location: Lexington, SC
- Contact:
Re: Big water
oopsiflipped wrote:Are you saying my cross side recovery should be done with the power face away from the boat?
I think I see where the confusion is coming from - it's probably coming from that highlighted bit. I slice the blade forward with the power face *towards* the boat and I think that is what Bill means. If I extend the thumb of my T-grip hand, it would be pointing forward, the lower hand slicing the paddle forward - you can then pick it up and over or leave it in and twist it back square for another cross forward stroke. I frequently will hammer out a series of crossforwards with the paddle never leaving the water. See a recent thread with the Bob P video from the Housatonic (?) and discussion of the "fosdraw" (fast offside draw) for a variation on the same theme.billhay4 wrote:...To develop a strong offside, you have to lean out front and plant the blade. Then, draw it back NO FURTHER than the front of your body. To lift the blade to make another stroke, or switch to onside, you have to learn to feather the blade correctly. Turn the wrist to the outside (i.e. *bring the knuckles toward the boat*). Then, when the blade is parallel to the boat, you lift it forward and out of the water with the lower hand and push it forward or pull it across the boat (if you're going onside)....
C-Boats Moderator
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam/CanoeOutfitting
-
Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
-
Jim Michaud
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:24 am
- Location: Vernon, Connecticut
I just got back from running the Grand Canyon for the 25th time so I guess that I have a little experience running big waves. On the trip we had a gal paddling an OC-1 and it was her first time running big water. At mile 82 we stopped for lunch right before running Grapevine Rapid which is a long big wave rapid which requires some precise maneuvering. She swam a few times early-on so she was a bit concerned about running this one. Two of us C-boaters gave her a couple of tips and from then on she smoothed every rapid (exept for Horn Creek). Here's what we told her.
Take a hard forward stroke and on your recovery keep your paddle at water level and sweep out to the side with the back side of the paddle down and at an angle to the water. This keeps you on a solid brace while allowing you to angle the boat properly for the next oncoming wave. While paddling keep leaning toward your paddle side and trust your brace. Forget about the fancy crossover strokes in really big waves. It makes you too unstable. It's much easier to re-align your boat when you reach the top of a wave.
Jim
Take a hard forward stroke and on your recovery keep your paddle at water level and sweep out to the side with the back side of the paddle down and at an angle to the water. This keeps you on a solid brace while allowing you to angle the boat properly for the next oncoming wave. While paddling keep leaning toward your paddle side and trust your brace. Forget about the fancy crossover strokes in really big waves. It makes you too unstable. It's much easier to re-align your boat when you reach the top of a wave.
Jim
Offside
Sorry for the confusing description. You recovery the blade with the power side toward the boat.
As for the post above, you can paddle big water with onside strokes and braces only. A pretty defensive way to boat, though, and you have to pay close attention to which way the boat faces so you can brace if you need to. Still, it works in big water, especially if you're on the edge of your skill level.
I prefer to paddle offensively in all water, using both sides and bracing on both sides.
The offside brace is an offside draw stroke, by the way.
I don't think using offside strokes makes you unstable at all. The switch over is done with the blade very close to the deck and should be very fast. The body remains over the center of the boat at least until you're close to having the paddle in the water on the offside.
If you follow the link I posted in my last post, you'll see video clips for lots of stroke combinations. These are very helpful for seeing how strokes are linked. Stroke linking is a key to c-boating because it allows you to shift sides and weight without losing your balance.
Bill
As for the post above, you can paddle big water with onside strokes and braces only. A pretty defensive way to boat, though, and you have to pay close attention to which way the boat faces so you can brace if you need to. Still, it works in big water, especially if you're on the edge of your skill level.
I prefer to paddle offensively in all water, using both sides and bracing on both sides.
The offside brace is an offside draw stroke, by the way.
I don't think using offside strokes makes you unstable at all. The switch over is done with the blade very close to the deck and should be very fast. The body remains over the center of the boat at least until you're close to having the paddle in the water on the offside.
If you follow the link I posted in my last post, you'll see video clips for lots of stroke combinations. These are very helpful for seeing how strokes are linked. Stroke linking is a key to c-boating because it allows you to shift sides and weight without losing your balance.
Bill
Back Surfing
Cadster is right. This is one way to move the boat on a big river. If the wave is too steep, though, you'll back ender.
Bill
Bill
Jim Michaud rules in Big Water
http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php? ... light=loop
You didn't pull off anymore big water rodeo moves this trip did you?
You didn't pull off anymore big water rodeo moves this trip did you?
give it break (please).... I ran the grand canyon early in the second year of open canoeing, and even back then in the early 1980's it was only a advanced intermediate level run (at best)...Jim Michaud wrote:I just got back from running the Grand Canyon for the 25th time so I guess that I have a little experience running big waves. On the trip we had a gal paddling an OC-1 and it was her first time running big water. At mile 82 we stopped for lunch right before running Grapevine Rapid which is a long big wave rapid which requires some precise maneuvering. She swam a few times early-on so she was a bit concerned about running this one. Two of us C-boaters gave her a couple of tips and from then on she smoothed every rapid (exept for Horn Creek). Here's what we told her.
Take a hard forward stroke and on your recovery keep your paddle at water level and sweep out to the side with the back side of the paddle down and at an angle to the water. This keeps you on a solid brace while allowing you to angle the boat properly for the next oncoming wave. While paddling keep leaning toward your paddle side and trust your brace. Forget about the fancy crossover strokes in really big waves. It makes you too unstable. It's much easier to re-align your boat when you reach the top of a wave.
Jim
evidently we're talking so far over your head, you can't even recognize what everyone else (so far) is doing
offsides do work in big waves, and teaching/telling somebody to ride a low brace down the river is BS... in fact purposely weighting one side on a low brace in big powerful water, is the opposite thing to do initially... you've just shot you wad... there's nothing left... a low brace is the last chance, there's nothing left... not only are you already in an unbalanced position and committed too much to one side, it's way harder and takes longer to get off a low brace, and then get back to the business at hand which is paddling... doing almost anything else short of flipping over is better, because you still have that brace left to fall back on... my guess is you must have an simply incredible roll
and no I'm not impressed, I've done 25 way harder things than the Grand Canyon, (and have turned down 10-12 invitations)... you go there for the experience, scenery, immenseness, history, geology, remoteness... .... ..., not for the overall intensity of the whitewater (9 miles out of 10 are flat)