2009 ACA Open Boat Slalom Nationals at ASCI?

[Nate]

Maybe someplace like the course in Golden, CO could put in an example--they have proximity to Denver and the confluence whitewater course as well. I know they held Jr. Team Trials there this past spring, and the Junior Olympics there the year before, but I'm not sure how much open boat representation they have.

ASCI would be a great venue, in my opinion, but it is rather difficult to keep an open boat dry at the higher water levels. It would probably be necessary to run the race on two pumps, as opposed to the 3.5 pumps the decked boat nationals are run at.

One other issue I seem to remember hearing about was the proximity of camping. Someone mentioned that the open boat crowd tends to prefer to camp rather than rent lots of rooms, and ASCI doesn't have a campsite with immediate proximity such as other places do--they are in the middle of a ski resort. Although I'm sure that problem could be worked out.


Personally, I think we should definitely condense the classes. Although this is a decked boat example, I would have preferred to have placed 4th overall in the C-1 class at the JOs in Wausau last week rather than 1st in the Jr. 17 age group. I think it is somewhat ridiculous to split the Junior class into four different classes. Maybe I understand separating the 10 year olds from the 17 year olds, but dividing the upper age levels is just obnoxious, in my opinion. Sorry if this third paragraph was off topic. I know it's a different discussion and not what Keech intended this thread to be for.

Just another note about the World Series race being held at ASCI: All of the World Series races are open to any participants, not just the national teams. Since the venue is so close to so many people, everyone should race. Think how cool it will be to be able to brag about having raced against Martikan.

Nate

[PAC]

Sorry about making you sound like Mr. Evil Mike - I was just stirring the soup there! Beside it did sound like the type of protest that would be talked about for years!

As for location - ASCI is cool because its close to me. But after taking the trip to the French Broad with the boy I could, with enough notice, be talked into a road trip out west. Keep us posted!

[Mike W.]

PAC, no appoligies neccesary. You didn't stir the soup anywhere near as much as I did on Saturday I just wanted to clarify what the proposed protest was about. I'm real happy that Wade took home a medal. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

You & Jim are right, burning a boat in protest would be talked about for a while What the heck, it's just the ACA. They want to eliminate race boats from national level races & support mandatory licensing of paddlers. What a joke

Sorry for the thread-jack. Its not really my style.

[Jim]

To answer the original question- for me, late June will work, September and the first half of June will not. This is a family event and vacation for us, so we need the kids to be out of school.

I will add my 2 cents worth based on the other discussions on this thread. I am new to slalom, just being involved for the last 6 – 7 years and I have attended 2 OC nationals. If I understand the history correctly the volunteers and leaders in the sport have been trying to grow the sport for many years and one strategy for that was to add classes and reward more participants. However, some good arguments have been made for fewer classes and I agree that we should move in that direction.

I look forward to the opportunity to paddle the ASCI site and would travel there for a race. Camping at the race site is not a big issue for me, but I do appreciate having a common campground where most of the paddlers will congregate for the social / camaraderie aspect of canoe racing.

I recommend that the length of the event is important. I can see condensing it to 4 days- 2 days of training and 2 of racing- but less makes the trip less worthwhile. Of course, there are other rivers down there worth paddling, but water levels / releases may not fit well.

Right now it is time to count down for Minden! 1 more week and it is time to travel- I look forward to seeing you all there.

[Keech]

The original purpose of this thread was to stimulate a discussion that would start on-line and continue at Minden about future Nationals sites and some of the issues with the length of the event. Almost everyone agrees that there are too many classes. The big problem is which classes to eliminate.

Here are a couple of possibilities:

1- Eliminate the “combined classes”! After all they were created to encourage WWOC downriver racers to participate in slalom back when both slalom and downriver were contested at the same event. I know this because I was around when these classes were created and helped write the rules that defined them. Now that the two disciplines have separate national committees and are run on separate dates and different types of river settings, that justification has evaporated. Of late, the downriver course for the combined classes seems contrived when it held on the slalom course and the additional length is made up of flatwater. Minden is a good case in point. The alternative is to select another river setting to hold the downriver portion of the combined as happens in Wausau. Rarely is the slalom held on a section of river that also has a good downriver run that runs through or near the slalom course. In addition these classes seem to be getting smaller and smaller of late.

2- Combine the REC and RAC classes of the same type. Over the past few years, the technology use for REC boats has improved to the point that the run times are comparable with the RAC classes. This is a strong argument that supports that it’s the paddler and not the material the boat is made of.

In my opinion, the ideal length of a Nationals would be two days of racing and two of three days of practice. Right now the rules say in Article VII: COURSE AND SCHEDULE REQUIREMENTS: “2. The schedule of events shall be as follows: There must be at least 3 days allocated, including one day for practice and two days for racing. The slalom classes should be divided into two or more days of competition.” May be this paragraph needs to be changed!

Again, all of this is meant to provoke the dialogue that has started here and will, I hope, continue at the National Meeting at Minden.

Keech

[sbroam]

I've only been to one OC Slalom Nats. I was amazed at the number of classes at the Slalom nats and how many classes any individual paddler might show up in. I certainly missed some of the class distinctions and could see how keeping the times/participants/etc... straight would be a headache for organizers. I think it is important to be "welcoming" to folks new to slalom, maybe a class or two for "beginner types"? or some other way so they don't feel like they are running with the "big dogs"?

Having seen mixed Jr./Sr. teams at both Slalom and Downriver nationals, I think that is a neat way to get kids involved. Depending on timing and location, I'd love to race with one/both of my older kids.

I raced in the combined just because I thought it would be fun (and it was) and I thought it might be a place where me and my 15' royalex boat might have a chance at being competitive! I later wished I'd entered a couple of other classes (and maybe borrowed a boat?).

I thought it might be interesting to change the combined so that the slalom course was in the middle or at the end of the downriver run... Or maybe have 20 slalom gates spread out over the downriver run. Just thinkin'

[cbcboat]

My opinon--
Keep the combined class, Understood that Downriver nats is a whole different event but those folks should still be encouraged to try slalom and vice versa. Also it adds a little different aspect of racing to the slalom event. Personally I think its fun. Only problem is most of the sites that slalom is held at don't have a good downriver course, especially man made courses, being that they aren't very long.
Combining Rec and Rac--I personally don't think that would be fair to the 'Rec' boat paddlers. I think most composite boats are definetley faster than plastic boats, mainly becasue they are designed for racing. With the exception of the Spark, most palstic boats aren't designed for racing, Its already a disadvantage to race an Ocoee against a Spark, try an Ocoe against an Ignitor--not a chance. Also how many people really own composite boats compared to the amount of people than own Rec boats. Remember the wider the range of paddler that is accomidated the more paddlers will come-ideally. I agree it should be the paddler and not the boat, but then there should be boats that aren't allowed or everyone should paddle the same boat--don't think that would work.
Kaz-cause you seem to win the most, do you honestly think that you could paddle an Ocoee as fast as an Ignitor or even a Spark, my GUESS is no.
I think eliminating length based classes would be the first place to start.
Thats my opinion
B

[sbroam]

I think there were enough Sparks at the Nat that there could have been a class of Sparks accommodated by some boat loaning...

[Keech]

Well I looked at the Nationals results for 2007 & 2006 and found out two things. First 95% of the participants in the combined classes were slalom specialists! The balance I just didn't recognize. As far as merging the RAC & REC classes, I looked at OC-1 Open (RAC & REC), OC-1 Masters (RAC & REC), OC-1 Women (RAC & REC), OC-2 Open (RAC & REC) and OC-2 Mixed (RAC & REC). That is five classes for two years or ten merged results. I found that a REC boat won nine out of the ten classes! Only the 2006 OC-1 Women’s (RAC & REC) merged class was one by a RAC boat! I looked at the top ten in the ten merged classes and found that out 100 boats, only 29 were RAC boats. If you reduce the field to the top five boats in each class, out of 50 boats there are only 14 RAC boats! Finally if you just look at just podium finishes, in 2006 RAC boats would have won: one gold and one silver medal out of a fifteen possible medals, and in 2007, RAC boats would have won two silver and three bronze medals out of a possible fifteen. So I guess you could argue that the RAC boats would be at a disadvantage if the RAC & REC classes were merged. The REC boat designs have really caught up to the point that there is no real difference.

So this all very interesting and seems to indicate that the REC class is not at all behind the RAC class. How this translates into any possible reduction in the number of classes in Open Canoe Slalom remains to be seen!

Keech

[Craig Smerda]

as I've said on many, many, many occassions until I've been absolutely blue in the face... throw out ALL the different "length" classes and just bring the best boat for yourself and for that particular course, the classes you want to enter and be done with it... start there.

baby steps before giant leaps people.


edit (p.s. IF the classes were narrowed down I see no reason why 2 days of practice and 2 days of racing would not be reasonable for the race. This of course would vary if the combined class were included as two combined runs per class plus the downriver sprint could potentially utilize an entire day. Consider the volunteers that would need to be at the race site on a "work" day.)

[Rockhopper]

BRANDON - ARE YOU GUYS HEADING EAST FOR THE COMP THIS YEAR? I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE COMP ALTERNATE EAST WEST. WE TRAVELED A FAIR CLIP LAST YEAR. MONTANA IS A LONG WAY FROM THERE. I'D LIKE TO CARRY ON THE ROCKHOPPER TRADITION. ~ GREG

[cbcboat]

BRANDON - ARE YOU GUYS HEADING EAST FOR THE COMP THIS YEAR?

Greg, Not this year, a little too far, a little too expensive. I've got 2 other trips going on in August. Contact Alan, he left me a message last night, he's thinking about trying to go.
B

[Keech]

The issues for any venue bidding for the ACA Open Canoe Slalom Nationals, (actually the ACA Open Canoe Slalom Nationals & North American Championships), seem to be:

1- The number of Race Days and the number of Practice Days.
2- The great number of Classes.
3- Finding a suitable place to hold the Downriver Race that's part of the Combined Classes.
4- Schedule the event when Schools are not in session.

Number one is stated in the rules, currently two or more day of racing and at least one day of practice. May this should be changed if that's not want paddlers want!

Number two is a little harder to solve. Of course elimination the Combined Classes would solve numbers two and three!

Number three presents a problem for most venues. Most of time the Downriver race must be held somewhere away from the slalom course.

Number four really leaves only July and August. May be the end of June can be included but not much more. The question becomes, how many juniors do we disenfranchise if we run a Nationals in the Spring, late May or Early June, or in the Fall in September?

All of these topics are questions that the ACA Open Canoe Slalom Committee should take up at their Nationals Meeting which will be held in Minden during this year's Nationals, August 1-3, 2008.

Keech T. LeClair
ACA Atlantic Division
Open Canoe Slalom Chairman

Web Site: http://ACA.Whitewater-Slalom.us

[philcanoe]

The comparison of RAC to REC is entirely misleading, in light of the long tradition of artificial length requirements imposed on the RAC classes.

Definition by length and materials has lead to stagnation in boat designs of 4-meter and 15-foot canoes ... while REC boats is where most refinement and development has taken place in he last 10-15 years. For instance trying to compare the slalom times possible in an Spark, against those possible in a 15 footer is hardly anything more than and exercise in statical analysis. There is no comparing, else we would all still be paddling them.

The creation of so many classes was intended to spur interest, by allowing the non-racer a place to test themselves and try out the sport; however in actuality the established racers have entered the REC classes so freely that there is little to no difference in the skill levels of the top competitors (as they are the same individuals). Perhaps it's time to rate the paddler, and not the boat.

While I haven't been to the last couple nationals, the combined event has been one of the more competitive and interesting events of the entire weekend. Furthermore Whitewater Open Canoe Slalom is not about elite competition, as much as it is an type of modern day rendezvous for the better open canoers from across the country. That is why camping is paramount. It is the event, the cooking, the cooler talk, music, and late nights, that is the draw. If there was a US Team and then the Olympics, it would be different. There is usually not even a mention of THE results, in THE magazine of the ACA.

[sbroam]

[quote="philcanoe"][/quote]

Hear, hear...