Jakke,
In your next pool practice session, when you swing out to set-up, arch your back so it feels like you are trying to get your shoulders to the surface (with your forehead planted on your shaft hand of course), paddle to the surface, and then push really hard with your offside knee and then push down with your forhead while pulling on onside knee...do not push with your arms. This should get you into the sweeping over the hull phase without having to really do a low brace...should get there with just the hip snap.
You are parallel to the bottom of the pool when you sweep out into your setup aren't you? If you aren't facing the bottom, it'll be harder to roll up as easily.
Don't rush things either. You should be able to get into your setup position and wait to do your hip snap. Once you get it down you can start speeding it up for river rolling.
Hope this might help.
Mike
how to convert a pool roll to a combat roll
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
I'll never forget my first open boat combat roll. I was paddling a Spark on the St Louis River in Duluth MN. I was on a surf/ferry and my upstream edge dropped. I had gotten my pool roll fairly solid previously and I just did it with all that mental stuff that y'all have been talking about and popped right up. If you think you can do it, you can do it. But as soon as any doubt enters your mind, forget the roll and get ready to swim. I think the best piece of advice I've gotten on an open roll is look at the paddle from when you hip snap all the way until you finish.
Scull the paddle
Scull the paddle, when you feel it on the surface, drop your left shoulder as low as it can go (If you're rolling up on the right side of the boat, right shoulder if left side of boat), as soon as you drop the shoulder, snap.
Bow to the river, and the river will let you up.
Bow to the river, and the river will let you up.
Jollyman, the spark is by far the easiest boat to roll I ever tried. Not that I want to say you did a bad job, but you could have had harder boats 
.
Anyway, I'll be out for another pool session tonight. Maybe I find the problem. I won't be happy with a good roll (I know how it should feel). I have to know how I did it. But we'll see.
I'll take into account the suggestions and give it a try! I let you know!
.Anyway, I'll be out for another pool session tonight. Maybe I find the problem. I won't be happy with a good roll (I know how it should feel). I have to know how I did it. But we'll see.
I'll take into account the suggestions and give it a try! I let you know!
WW Roll
For me the trick was repetition. I would go to winter pool sessions, put on pfd & helmet(yeah, I know!) and do maybe 100 rolls in a two hour period. Flip onside, flip offside, one hand on the paddle. holding paddle by blade, have someone hand me paddle after flip, lean back until I could touch a marked spot on bag lacing and then roll. Just everything I could think of to slow the process, get used to repositioning my body and setting up. That helped a lot but I began to make real progress when I started looking for easy play spots and doing the exercises in the river. I had prepared so well in the pool that I seldom missed one of the playspot rolls. In fact I went from about 1 in 10 on the river to seldom missing in whitewater mostly by constant repetition.
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Mike W.
- CBoats.net Staff
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Keep repeating to yourself "It only gets worse if I swim" and/or "If I punch out, I've got to swim this heavy, water filled boat somewhere where I can get it & myself out of the water, dump it & try to find most of my stuff that floated out." "I'll loose a shoe if I swim."
If you've got enough air to swim, you've got enough air to roll. It takes more time (air) to swim than it does to roll 'cause you've got to swim down out of the boat before you can swim up to the surface. With that in mind, you'd just as well give one more roll attempt (no matter how many times you've tried). You know how to roll, so just roll.
The best physical thing for me was working on low braces (that's all a canoe roll is anyway). Get your head gradually lower to, then into the water & brace back up.
If you run out of brace before you're all the way up, CHEAT! Use a skulling brace to keep pressure on the blade.
If you've got enough air to swim, you've got enough air to roll. It takes more time (air) to swim than it does to roll 'cause you've got to swim down out of the boat before you can swim up to the surface. With that in mind, you'd just as well give one more roll attempt (no matter how many times you've tried). You know how to roll, so just roll.
You're head is weightless in the water. 1" out & it weighs as much as a watermellon. Your mellon should be the last thing out of the water. You've got a helmet, so leave it in the water & don't worry about hitting it on stuff.jakke wrote:On the video footage I did see some problems:
- my head rises too soon on the river
The best physical thing for me was working on low braces (that's all a canoe roll is anyway). Get your head gradually lower to, then into the water & brace back up.
If you run out of brace before you're all the way up, CHEAT! Use a skulling brace to keep pressure on the blade.
[quote] the spark is by far the easiest boat to roll I ever tried.
Yes, the Spark was very easy to roll, I loved it. I actually own a Probe 11 and have successfully rolled it on the Ocoee and have rolled other boats in combat. I try to stay uright as much as possible!
Yes, the Spark was very easy to roll, I loved it. I actually own a Probe 11 and have successfully rolled it on the Ocoee and have rolled other boats in combat. I try to stay uright as much as possible!
Boats:
-Mohawk Probe 11 OC1
-Pyranha i3 221 K1
"Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly ever acquire the skill to do difficult things easily"
-Mohawk Probe 11 OC1
-Pyranha i3 221 K1
"Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly ever acquire the skill to do difficult things easily"
Staying upright is of course also my first objective. But knowing to roll is a way to push the limits a bit further and save myself from swims and dumping the boat.
Anyway, I had a pool session on saturday, with a few more observations:
- my knee work is still sloppy, so I need to work on that some more, first of all!
- I sweep out to 90°, but when I move my body over my paddle, I tend to sweep out some more :?
- I relly should drag my shaft hand to my forehead and drive my T-grip hand down. This delays the brace on the blade, but that's exactly what I need, apparently.
I had someone video me, so I'll try to put the fragments in one video and put it online somewhere. Maybe you guys can spot some other errors in there.
Anyway, I had a pool session on saturday, with a few more observations:
- my knee work is still sloppy, so I need to work on that some more, first of all!
- I sweep out to 90°, but when I move my body over my paddle, I tend to sweep out some more :?
- I relly should drag my shaft hand to my forehead and drive my T-grip hand down. This delays the brace on the blade, but that's exactly what I need, apparently.
I had someone video me, so I'll try to put the fragments in one video and put it online somewhere. Maybe you guys can spot some other errors in there.
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yarnellboat
- C Maven
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- Location: Winnipeg
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Sounds like you are making progress...
Is it your knees or your outfitting that is sloppy?
I think I 've said this before, but you might want to check your outfitting to ensure that any pressure you put into your knees is being transfered directly to the hull.
Several times I've seen that people who were having trouble initiating the roll had outfitting that allowed their knees to slide around too much. Good knee straps might help you.
And, of course, keep your face in the water!
PY.
Is it your knees or your outfitting that is sloppy?
I think I 've said this before, but you might want to check your outfitting to ensure that any pressure you put into your knees is being transfered directly to the hull.
Several times I've seen that people who were having trouble initiating the roll had outfitting that allowed their knees to slide around too much. Good knee straps might help you.
And, of course, keep your face in the water!
PY.
Currently I'm using a borrowed salsa for my pool sessions. That outfitting is tight. I only fit in with my swimming outfit. No room for neoprene or drysuits. So I'll never use this boat outside the pool.
The outfitting of my own boat (viper11) is more loose. But there I can add an extra strap (kind of lap-belt) -airplane style quick release. Thought I do roll my viper without those straps.
I'm using the borrowed salsa because I haven't found the time to clean my own boat.
I keep on analysing and searching. Hopefully I make a good rolli n the near future and now why!
Tomorrow I'll be out for another pool session. Hopefully I move on some more.
If I find the time this week I'll put the video fragments together and put them online somewhere.
Thanks!
The outfitting of my own boat (viper11) is more loose. But there I can add an extra strap (kind of lap-belt) -airplane style quick release. Thought I do roll my viper without those straps.
I'm using the borrowed salsa because I haven't found the time to clean my own boat.
I keep on analysing and searching. Hopefully I make a good rolli n the near future and now why!
Tomorrow I'll be out for another pool session. Hopefully I move on some more.
If I find the time this week I'll put the video fragments together and put them online somewhere.
Thanks!
ok, I think I found my error during last nights pool session.
Apparently I use a tiny little brace before I do the knee work, then work with the knees and then use a last brace to get the body up.
The problem is that when my paddle is to flat to start, I kind of spoil my brace I need to get my body up, on the initialisation.
If I manage to get the T-grip arm really stretched down the bottom of the pool/river, shaft hand close to the forehead, it results in an almost effortless roll. I have enough "tiny little brace" on flatening the paddle durining initialisation, roll with the knees and sweep out to bring the body up.
It felt good yesterday, so I repeated to know what I was doing. Then I started to try to get the "bad" feeling again, to find the difference. And of course back to the good one. Next week I have to take my pfd and give it a try with pfd!
I still have to work on some issues though
- with my eyes closed, I tend to sweep out past 90°, too far
- eyes closed, one reason or another my paddle sinks too deep, making it harder to roll.
So some things to work on, to get them right and to automate. I think I should also try to reach even higher with my shaft hand (try to feel air) and thus also curling the upper body some more during setup.
But after all, I'm really happy I found back the "good roll" and know why that is a good, effortless roll! It's time to automate this roll, and move it over to the river!
Apparently I use a tiny little brace before I do the knee work, then work with the knees and then use a last brace to get the body up.
The problem is that when my paddle is to flat to start, I kind of spoil my brace I need to get my body up, on the initialisation.
If I manage to get the T-grip arm really stretched down the bottom of the pool/river, shaft hand close to the forehead, it results in an almost effortless roll. I have enough "tiny little brace" on flatening the paddle durining initialisation, roll with the knees and sweep out to bring the body up.
It felt good yesterday, so I repeated to know what I was doing. Then I started to try to get the "bad" feeling again, to find the difference. And of course back to the good one
. Next week I have to take my pfd and give it a try with pfd!I still have to work on some issues though
- with my eyes closed, I tend to sweep out past 90°, too far
- eyes closed, one reason or another my paddle sinks too deep, making it harder to roll.
So some things to work on, to get them right and to automate. I think I should also try to reach even higher with my shaft hand (try to feel air) and thus also curling the upper body some more during setup.
But after all, I'm really happy I found back the "good roll" and know why that is a good, effortless roll! It's time to automate this roll, and move it over to the river!
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yarnellboat
- C Maven
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:54 pm
- Location: Winnipeg
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Your learning might help others too...
I have a friend who's been struggling to cement her roll. Her problem has been the roll just running out gas - she's out of brace just before it's quite upright.
The last thing she corrected was doing too much sweep-to-the-bow too early, and not enough bending straight downward, against which her hips & kness can get more leverage to roll the hull. I think what you suggest - forcing her t-grip lower and arching as much as possible, would also help her get a more reliable finish.
Thanks.
PY.
I have a friend who's been struggling to cement her roll. Her problem has been the roll just running out gas - she's out of brace just before it's quite upright.
The last thing she corrected was doing too much sweep-to-the-bow too early, and not enough bending straight downward, against which her hips & kness can get more leverage to roll the hull. I think what you suggest - forcing her t-grip lower and arching as much as possible, would also help her get a more reliable finish.
Thanks.
PY.
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wetnobby
Lots of good advice here and i feel for you Jakke...
It does sound like the pool roll is still a little way off being robust yet.
I have taught a number of people to roll and have observed a few behaviour patterns by people while learning.
1) Poor set up and rushed erratic inconsistant roll attempts.
Get really, really comfortable hanging around in your boat whilst its upside down...keep repeating hanging around upside down..paddle around the pool upside down just using your hands for as long as you can before exiting your boat..only when you are truely relaxed and confident head down can you concentrate on learning the roll.
2)Hesitating on the brace up.....the last few percent!!
Learn where your finish position is...Force yourself to follow through the full roll motion at a contant speed to the finish position every time!! even if you think the roll is not going to work....keep going..every time because if you dont keep going smoothly to the finish position it will fail..!!
That advice might sound very basic....but it seems to make the difference..............Good luck!!!
It does sound like the pool roll is still a little way off being robust yet.
I have taught a number of people to roll and have observed a few behaviour patterns by people while learning.
1) Poor set up and rushed erratic inconsistant roll attempts.
Get really, really comfortable hanging around in your boat whilst its upside down...keep repeating hanging around upside down..paddle around the pool upside down just using your hands for as long as you can before exiting your boat..only when you are truely relaxed and confident head down can you concentrate on learning the roll.
2)Hesitating on the brace up.....the last few percent!!
Learn where your finish position is...Force yourself to follow through the full roll motion at a contant speed to the finish position every time!! even if you think the roll is not going to work....keep going..every time because if you dont keep going smoothly to the finish position it will fail..!!
That advice might sound very basic....but it seems to make the difference..............Good luck!!!