Hello,
I've been reading and playing around like most of you, but there still are quite some things I don't get, and one of them are paddling styles.
There are some great resources around, concerning paddling styles
- kent ford's drill time and solo playboating
- tom fosters dvd
- from here to there dvd
Now, Kent seems to swear by the stern corrected way of paddling, Tom Foster is rather a bow paddler carving inner circles. Sure, you never paddle only the one or the other style, but probably there is some domination of one of the styles.
Ok, even a good form stern-pry is slowing down. But on the other hand a cross stroke is not the way to go either in every situation. Though faster then switching, a cross strokes leaves your paddle out of the water for some time and you - or at least I- have no offside low brace.
Is there anyone who can give some reason to this subject?
A next thing I miss is some detailed footage of moves on harder (class II+,III, IV water). Sure, Kent Ford and Tom Foster both say it's all in the basics an flatwater. Sure, no paddling without the basics. But on flat water you cannot learn how to pivot on a wave, you cannot learn how to punch holes, .... . Although you have to learn that mostly by experience, it would be nice to have some footage of experienced paddlers, showing moves on harder water, with explanation what they do, and why they do it. But that kind of material seems to be missing in the canoe world? (I don't know for the butt-boaters). Anyone who knows about the existence of this kind of material?
Thanks!
paddling styles
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I think the boat I'm in and what its on determine a lot where I'm at in the boat. Sure a shoot on a tight crik in my Fink I'm not hanging around in the backseat. My CG (center of gravity) in relation to everything else is the key IMHO. Being centered just seems the safest place to be!
Last edited by PAC on Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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marclamenace
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I agree! Seen kayak big water instruction videos (sorry can't seems to find them back) and it was pretty much all about pushing, pushing and don't stop paddling hard to keep you out of water...
I'm sure to C1 there is a whole lot more to say on running steep creek, big falls etc, but essentially I found only C1 slalom instructions around, which are more than a great start, but still no quite the same topic.
Maybe a great idea for a new Kent Ford video? Drill time SPII was awesome... The title could sound like "How to stay alive while it looks like you want to kill yourself!"
I'm sure to C1 there is a whole lot more to say on running steep creek, big falls etc, but essentially I found only C1 slalom instructions around, which are more than a great start, but still no quite the same topic.
Maybe a great idea for a new Kent Ford video? Drill time SPII was awesome... The title could sound like "How to stay alive while it looks like you want to kill yourself!"
I'll be paddling the whole weekend on easy water, so I can play and try.
But after some thinking I concluded that most of the time you want to paddle on the downstream side of your boat, or the side that will be downstream.
There are a few exceptions though I really don't like ferries using offside strokes. That's a lot of hard work for things you can do with a current glide.
I don't know about catching offside eddies and carving the inner circle. I'll try that this weekend. I watched some clips of slalom paddlers, but the moment they switch sides, they also change their boat tilt. So I guess it's a lot more then just using cross or regular strokes.
I guess the answer to that also answers my question on how to move to my offside on not so easy water. Moving parallell with the current to catch an offside eddy, or even onside in pushy water without using a back-ferry.
And yes, I'd love to see a new Kent Ford video about extending your basic skills to class III - IV water! (is his C1 challenge video any good for an OC1 boater?)
If you know some more videos that go beyound the all important besics, C1 or OC1, I'm really interested!
But after some thinking I concluded that most of the time you want to paddle on the downstream side of your boat, or the side that will be downstream.
There are a few exceptions though I really don't like ferries using offside strokes. That's a lot of hard work for things you can do with a current glide.
I don't know about catching offside eddies and carving the inner circle. I'll try that this weekend. I watched some clips of slalom paddlers, but the moment they switch sides, they also change their boat tilt. So I guess it's a lot more then just using cross or regular strokes.
I guess the answer to that also answers my question on how to move to my offside on not so easy water. Moving parallell with the current to catch an offside eddy, or even onside in pushy water without using a back-ferry.
And yes, I'd love to see a new Kent Ford video about extending your basic skills to class III - IV water! (is his C1 challenge video any good for an OC1 boater?)
If you know some more videos that go beyound the all important besics, C1 or OC1, I'm really interested!
there is a great article on Jans Homepage that copes also this theme:
http://www.open-canoe.de/open/technique ... butt_v.html
and I like the new LVM-C1-video a lot - very good opportunity to watch the techniques of better paddlers and learn from them.
You should come to the european Armada - these are days to learn an awful lot!!!
http://www.open-canoe.de/open/technique ... butt_v.html
and I like the new LVM-C1-video a lot - very good opportunity to watch the techniques of better paddlers and learn from them.
You should come to the european Armada - these are days to learn an awful lot!!!
Last edited by fez on Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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sbroam
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I find when I'm being lazy, I tend to paddle over the stern; when I'm active, I tend more to paddle over the bow...
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xmas0c1c1k1
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All depends on boat!! Long boats that carry speed you can get away with paddling from the stern more. Converted c1's are usually slow so you need to paddle up front more. I paddle with kayakers for the most part and i try to paddle alot like them. Taking lots of cross bow strokes. With practice your cross strokes can be very effective even for boofing. A cross boof is way better than ruddering of a drop. It is definately the challeng of cboating and always can get better with practice. Watch good paddlers slalom creeking, and playboating and you see that they use their offside alot.
jakke, you wanting C1 or OC1 help?
(while not offering video help, I seem to gather this from your posts)
I took it to be OC1... from the signature stuff at bottom of your post....
if so then be careful extrapolating too much from slalom c1 videos, these guys are focusing entirely on speed... their whole focus is from point A-2-B, as fast as humanly possible... this is probably the biggest error (IMHO) that I notice with opencanoers in general... fast is not always your friend, control is way more important... and only controlled motion when speed is needed... one well placed stroke, is worth more than three done at the wrong time... have seen some really good C1'ers, not paddle OC1 very well (one was a world champion) simply because they're different, can take on water, and take a bit of practice...of course just instances, as have seen some beautiful oc1'ing done by guys jumping out of c1's...not saying don't watch, look at where they put paddle, see how few strokes they use in some places, how long they hang on the paddle at times, note that at times the paddle is kept near side, at others way forward... see how they do forward strokes... all good stuff... but will not necessarily translate verbatim to a dry OC1 run
I would practice getting the most done with as few as strokes as possible... like going back and forth doing same move over and over, all the while using fewer strokes - maybe on a easy rapid you can paddle (attain) back up ....and don't give up on that paddling on the upstream side, to me it's just as important... just for one instance (and only 1) - in big waves... approaching with paddle upstream and boat turned to that side - allows a big sweep, throwing boat higher (and drier -especially when coupled with a upstream lean on way up the face) up an over the wave, which is done really forceful (using whole body..hips..knees..shoulders... calves...and arms) at the right moment, and then transferring to a downstream lean - while going over the top, you'll end up back onside... just one instance of many,and would only work on a certain wave... the main thing is there is no one way, you need to learn multiple ways of achieving the same result in different ways... such as that sweep up the wave, can be sometimes with head leading and sometimes leaning back, just depends on the wave, what's after, or the direction you want to go or not go... and may be the wrong tactic for that wave... you may even not transfer over to downstream, but do the next wave with a upstream sweep again...
...there is not one way, it's not my way, it's your way!
(while not offering video help, I seem to gather this from your posts)
I took it to be OC1... from the signature stuff at bottom of your post....
if so then be careful extrapolating too much from slalom c1 videos, these guys are focusing entirely on speed... their whole focus is from point A-2-B, as fast as humanly possible... this is probably the biggest error (IMHO) that I notice with opencanoers in general... fast is not always your friend, control is way more important... and only controlled motion when speed is needed... one well placed stroke, is worth more than three done at the wrong time... have seen some really good C1'ers, not paddle OC1 very well (one was a world champion) simply because they're different, can take on water, and take a bit of practice...of course just instances, as have seen some beautiful oc1'ing done by guys jumping out of c1's...not saying don't watch, look at where they put paddle, see how few strokes they use in some places, how long they hang on the paddle at times, note that at times the paddle is kept near side, at others way forward... see how they do forward strokes... all good stuff... but will not necessarily translate verbatim to a dry OC1 run
I would practice getting the most done with as few as strokes as possible... like going back and forth doing same move over and over, all the while using fewer strokes - maybe on a easy rapid you can paddle (attain) back up ....and don't give up on that paddling on the upstream side, to me it's just as important... just for one instance (and only 1) - in big waves... approaching with paddle upstream and boat turned to that side - allows a big sweep, throwing boat higher (and drier -especially when coupled with a upstream lean on way up the face) up an over the wave, which is done really forceful (using whole body..hips..knees..shoulders... calves...and arms) at the right moment, and then transferring to a downstream lean - while going over the top, you'll end up back onside... just one instance of many,and would only work on a certain wave... the main thing is there is no one way, you need to learn multiple ways of achieving the same result in different ways... such as that sweep up the wave, can be sometimes with head leading and sometimes leaning back, just depends on the wave, what's after, or the direction you want to go or not go... and may be the wrong tactic for that wave... you may even not transfer over to downstream, but do the next wave with a upstream sweep again...
...there is not one way, it's not my way, it's your way!
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sbroam
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The guy who led me on my first trip down the Ocoee took like 5 strokes all day - was never in the wrong place, ran dry as a bone, never broke a sweat. When I grow up I want to be like that.philcanoe wrote:...
I would practice getting the most done with as few as strokes as possible...
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I only have an OC1, so yes, it's OC1 
. Though I do am thinking of either a prelude or a finkenmeister. If only those boats were cheaper!
Anyhow, I've been reading and thinking on the matter, and I'll be experimenting with some things this weekend. Timing and efficient strokes do are important.
What you say about C1, I did kind of mention the same, with my remark on the way Tom Foster does his offside-ferries, using many many offside strokes. So that's why I concluded: paddle on your downstream. I might change that opinion later on though.
And yes, I also want to be the kind of paddler who does all the things without apparent effort and only a few strokes. But first I have to train a lot and grow up
. Though I do am thinking of either a prelude or a finkenmeister. If only those boats were cheaper!Anyhow, I've been reading and thinking on the matter, and I'll be experimenting with some things this weekend. Timing and efficient strokes do are important.
What you say about C1, I did kind of mention the same, with my remark on the way Tom Foster does his offside-ferries, using many many offside strokes. So that's why I concluded: paddle on your downstream. I might change that opinion later on though.
And yes, I also want to be the kind of paddler who does all the things without apparent effort and only a few strokes. But first I have to train a lot and grow up
Ahh, this question I ask myself on, off, and in the middle of night when I can't sleep. When I started canoeing as a kid up in Michigan on lakes I was always in the stern, when I guided folks down the Clinch river in Virginia I was in the stern. When I took a oc-1 whitewater canoe class, I paddle most from the bow. When I became a canoe instructor I became confused, most teachers are (my parents are and were and oh yeah they were teachers). I find in short boats and creeks, and lower cfs rivers I paddle in the bow more. NRG, Gauley, and big water I tend to paddle in the stern and far less. I like the earlier post from Phil, paddle less to get more, my guitar teacher (another confused person even after a number of wifes) always said, "Less is More." I may be just going on and on but I think alot has to due in what kind of boat your in, and what can't of river your on. I am now confused just like all those before me, oh well, as long as I can still paddle.
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Louie
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was one who marked the WTF and after readin all the above I am still lost but Andrew Westwood is always writting an aritical for Rapid mag and I bet he has cover this subject, what ever it is you all are talking about. I do have to agree about the fewer strokes the better, not with Phill but with the guy below him. Besides if we wanted to be paddling our asses off and still crash throught the middle of the hole by mistake, we'd paddle a butt boat. Reminds of the story about the young bull and the old bull up on the hill lookin down on the heard of heffers, and the young bull says lets run down the hill and have one of thoses, the old bull says lets walk down the hill and have them all[/b]