Newb here. Mohawk XL-15 vs. Dagger Caption? Need some advic

REBEL72 · Post by **REBEL72** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:32 pm

I am trying to find a tandem ww canoe. I would like to find a tandem ww canoe that can also be paddled solo. I am looking at a Mohawk xl-15 with a tripple saddle and thigh straps and I have spoke with a guy about a Dagger Caption with a similiar set up. I will be taking this on 75% 2/3 water and 25% 3/4. If you have any tips, ideas, other boats, gear, boat for sale or any adivce would be helpful. Thanks, Reb.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:17 pm

I already replied to you on boatertalk, but let me repeat.... The Caption is unquestionably the better handling hull, solo or tandem. However, on BT you expressed thoughts of sometimes loading your tandem with a buddy, your daughter, and maybe some bear, etc. You should know that true ww tandems are not designed to carry much besides an adult tandem crew and lunch. If much more is added, they lose their handling properties and take on water too easily. So, any laid-back tandem trips in a Caption or XL-15 should be on real easy water that you know well. Don't plan on tandem overnight expeditions in such boats.

We have a Mad River Synergy, a 15' ww boat with a little less capacity than the Caption. Our Synergy is not that "dry" when run tandem. I have used it solo for multiple overnights on the San Juan and the Dolores, and it had plenty of capacity for me and my gear. But not for a tandem crew and gear. For that you need maybe a Vertige X or something even larger. Like an Old Town Tripper.

Post by **sbroam** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:36 pm

Of the two, though, the XL-15 would have the most capacity... It's quite a bit bigger but as noted, not the performer of the two.

Gail R · Post by **Gail R** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:44 pm

I hate to disagree with EZ. Normally it results in being pointed out the error of my ways

BUT, we have a caption which we use as a secondary boat in a tripping family. The legend takes the vast lion share but the caption will take a reasonably loaded 30 lt and a 30 lt soft side baja bag witout even being noticed. I suspect that one could rig the bag cages with zippers and even take an additional 30 lt with the bag inflated around it. We can get away with two week trips with this combination. I'm not sure we would do any barren trips with this combination

caveat is my experience is:
12olb female stern, 65 lb kid combo
or a 180 lb male stern and 63 lb kid combo
and the set up is two saddles

We know of couples who have used their captions on overnighters all be it light weight tripping.
Not a fan of either the Synergy or the nexus but if you like the mohawk then the esquif Vertige X might be a nice boat
all 4 of these are heavier I think than the caption

ok EZ......have at'er

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:27 am

I don't care what kind of canoe you're paddling on what grade of river, this sounds like major trouble to me!!

"...you expressed thoughts of sometimes loading your tandem with a buddy, your daughter, and maybe some bear, etc."

Good luck with that!

PY.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:33 am

For comparison, when I ran the Dolores (Slickrock Canyon), I had to carry all my water for three days, and I also had four tapered, inflating, Voyageur or Watershed bags lashed in along the triple saddle with their narrow ends tied under the float bags. I had a few roll top bags with odds and ends. I weigh ~220. So the loads comparing your Caption to my Synergy were not much different, though I'm not sure how you managed two weeks worth of food....

Anyway, the Synergy (and excellent long solo cruiser for overnights, fast and still agile) was not heavily loaded and could have handled more difficult whitewater than I encountered. But I still say that neither the Synergy nor the Caption is big enough for two full adults to do multiple overnights on whitewater. You may get away with it, but that does not mean it should be recommended to others.

Gail R · Post by **Gail R** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:07 pm

EZ.....we have a second boat Dagger Legend that is the workhorse. Man can that boat carry gear for 16 ft.
The caption:
adult, kid and about 60 lbs of gear maybe before you'd feel it.
Remeber to that ours is tandem saddles balanced for 110 bow and 180 in stern. We have less weight I think in saddles and with a kid @ 65 lbs, 45 lbs of extra weight capacity before it even meets it's optimum set up. With no gear the bow rides a little high with a kid and the bigger adult
It's strictly a tandem, those tripples are a compromise. Functional for sure but I didn't like the feel as much. Guess my rear kind of folded around the endges a bit

PK, thanks for pointing out "buddy" and kid......yea, not sure I'd like that feel. I find the caption when I stern with a kid feels much like my Outrage, a little bigger but same stability feel....I love it but not too sure I'd want to be paddling with 3 people in her

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:36 pm

The trick to making a triple saddle more comfortable is to glue panels of 2" minicell to the sides where your butt rests. Takes the width from a measly 6" out to 10". Minor carving on the front edge of the added panels allows for thighs sloping downward. I also glue knee spreaders to the sides of the triple saddle.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:38 pm

yarnellboat wrote:I don't care what kind of canoe you're paddling on what grade of river, this sounds like major trouble to me!!

"...you expressed thoughts of sometimes loading your tandem with a buddy, your daughter, and maybe some bear, etc."

Good luck with that!

PY.

http://www.bennyandboone.com/color-bears-canoe.gif

marclamenace · Post by **marclamenace** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:15 pm

I went last year on a 4 days trip on a class 3-4 solid river (haute lièvre, Qc) and a couple had a caption. They were 2 adults, rather lightweight people (about 160lbs each) good paddlers with minimal gear but still, they looked pretty comfortable and they were handling the big stuff nicely.

Oh and they had enough space to bring and cook and awesome prosciutto-mushrooms pasta meal with creamy sauce and parmesan cheese. Hmmm.

The caption can handle a lot.

Oh, here they are on picture: Daniel and Kathleen.

[img]http://picasaweb.google.fr/Marclamenace ... 7126886370[/img]

A sidenote on saddles: a tripple saddle is taking a lot of the gear space out. another guy was alone on this same trip having a hard time fitting everything in his 14' probe. He wasn't such a minimalist but still, the airbags are the only space left.

I have an old ME with one saddle for tripping and a second adjustable (removable) saddle for the second person when I need it. Without the second saddle I can put 3 big blue barrels in there and both 60" air bags still have nothing under them. I think it's a cool setup.

Marc.

REBEL72 · Post by **REBEL72** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:38 pm

Thanks for all the helpful info. I most likely will not be going on too many extended trips, mostly doing day trips with an occasional one nighter. It sounds as if either boat (Mohawk xl-15 or the Caption) will work well. Please keep passing along any information that you may have on these (or other) boats.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:08 pm

Gail,

It wasn't the buddy or daughter that I was worried about, it was the bears.

If the Mohawk has the triple saddle, I'd consider that a drawback for tripping. The hull is fine for light loads, as discussed, but I'd way rather not have all that extra saddle.

I use a VertigeX with (re)movable saddles.

PY.

C-Forum

Newb here. Mohawk XL-15 vs. Dagger Caption? Need some advic

Newb here. Mohawk XL-15 vs. Dagger Caption? Need some advic

Thanks everyone for all the great information...