Thanks to all who have responded to this so far... I just got back from Big Sandy and Upper Gaulley. (We had 13 boats on the Sandy (8 OC's) (and I paddled the falls on a Shredder for fun after a sucessful first flight... thud!) and 17 boats on the UpperG (13 OC's)... what a hoot. Keep responding and I will tell you why I'm so curious.
thanks!,
Craig
loaded questions
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
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the great gonzo
- Paddling Benefactor
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- Location: Montréal, Québec
some answers...
1) Most open boaters I know (including myself) come from a tripping background, many of them are happy just running rivers and are not interested in doing a lot of playboating, especially in holes, as OC run full of water and need to be bailed, (if you don't have a pump), which gets tiring.
Also many of the new short boats don't have much primary stability, which makes many open boaters feel uncomfortable.
2)OC's are significantly harder to roll than decked boats and are also full of water afterwards. Since many open boaters come from a tripping background they are used to swim rapids after an upset and to recover their boat and gear.
3) Don't know, I think my Prelude pretty much hits the mark in terms of handling, at least for most of my paddling. More secure outfitting perhaps (I have been sucked out of my boat while getting worked in a hole...), and factory installed bailing pumps would be cool...
Maybe a OC 1 that looks like a canoebut does have a real planing hull would be nice...
4) Nothing, I paddle both (prelude / rampage OC and Atom / Delirious C1). The C1 is definitely better for playing in holes, as there is no bailing and hyou can do vertical moves much easier.
I prefer the OC in bigger and gnarlier stuff howeve, feel mor secure in the big tub and spend much less time lookin at the fishies...
Also many of the new short boats don't have much primary stability, which makes many open boaters feel uncomfortable.
2)OC's are significantly harder to roll than decked boats and are also full of water afterwards. Since many open boaters come from a tripping background they are used to swim rapids after an upset and to recover their boat and gear.
3) Don't know, I think my Prelude pretty much hits the mark in terms of handling, at least for most of my paddling. More secure outfitting perhaps (I have been sucked out of my boat while getting worked in a hole...), and factory installed bailing pumps would be cool...
Maybe a OC 1 that looks like a canoebut does have a real planing hull would be nice...
4) Nothing, I paddle both (prelude / rampage OC and Atom / Delirious C1). The C1 is definitely better for playing in holes, as there is no bailing and hyou can do vertical moves much easier.
I prefer the OC in bigger and gnarlier stuff howeve, feel mor secure in the big tub and spend much less time lookin at the fishies...
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
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chuck naill
- CBoats Addict
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New boats are fun. I use a Spanish Fly. However, they are slow and they are paddled very differantly than a 14 -16 foot boat. After a while you decide what you like and you stick with it.
Rolling was not always something that open boaters considered as important. I think innovators like Nolan Whitesell began the paradym change. However, many were from the old school like Jaunita Quinn (her and her husband owned the old Blue Hole company in Sunbright, Tennessee) who taught me. Her forte was grace and the midst of chaos. She emphysized river reading skills, eddy hopping, paddle technique and smooth transitions. Many of these paddlers never used a helmet.
SOme of the open boaters like me transitioned to C-1's because we wanted to run a variety of streams without taking on water. I think that there are many available designs available like the Spanish Fly, the discontinued models like the Quake and Skeeter. THe Prelude has gotten good reviews.
Chuck
Rolling was not always something that open boaters considered as important. I think innovators like Nolan Whitesell began the paradym change. However, many were from the old school like Jaunita Quinn (her and her husband owned the old Blue Hole company in Sunbright, Tennessee) who taught me. Her forte was grace and the midst of chaos. She emphysized river reading skills, eddy hopping, paddle technique and smooth transitions. Many of these paddlers never used a helmet.
SOme of the open boaters like me transitioned to C-1's because we wanted to run a variety of streams without taking on water. I think that there are many available designs available like the Spanish Fly, the discontinued models like the Quake and Skeeter. THe Prelude has gotten good reviews.
Chuck
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
I think it is all a matter of style, what some people like some people hate. I like longer kayaks (3m+) but I love short play C1s and OC1s. I paddle a superfly and all so a OC2 but if I could get a CUFly I would, it just looks so much fun. The new play OC also does not look like a canoe so some people can't under stand why I would want one when they look so ugly.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I don't know it is harder to roll but if you use the water and roll using waves eg. canoe at bottom of wave and body at top of wave as you roll half the work is done. I find it as easy to roll as a C1 it just takes a while to get the fell of timing for when to roll.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
I would love to see harder edge and a bit narrower to help make it faster. Also a built in pump would be good. May be a longer OC with a flat hard edged planing hull, so you could cruse and play hard as well. May be a drain plug in the ends so if you have to pull a OC up a bank after a trip you don't have to worry about getting all the water out as it would come out as you lift it up, as some of our get outs are stright up and I hate trying to lift a half full OC up the bank till I reach a flat pice to empty it out.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
Apart from the cold, and getting told I'm taking up too much room on the roof racks not much at all. All so the lack of flat water fun, can't cartwheel on eddy lines so if its a river with not much playing and lots of flat water give me a C1 if not give me a Oc1.
Hope this helps you, so when do we find out what this is all about, or should I say when do we get to test your new design.
I think it is all a matter of style, what some people like some people hate. I like longer kayaks (3m+) but I love short play C1s and OC1s. I paddle a superfly and all so a OC2 but if I could get a CUFly I would, it just looks so much fun. The new play OC also does not look like a canoe so some people can't under stand why I would want one when they look so ugly.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I don't know it is harder to roll but if you use the water and roll using waves eg. canoe at bottom of wave and body at top of wave as you roll half the work is done. I find it as easy to roll as a C1 it just takes a while to get the fell of timing for when to roll.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
I would love to see harder edge and a bit narrower to help make it faster. Also a built in pump would be good. May be a longer OC with a flat hard edged planing hull, so you could cruse and play hard as well. May be a drain plug in the ends so if you have to pull a OC up a bank after a trip you don't have to worry about getting all the water out as it would come out as you lift it up, as some of our get outs are stright up and I hate trying to lift a half full OC up the bank till I reach a flat pice to empty it out.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
Apart from the cold, and getting told I'm taking up too much room on the roof racks not much at all. All so the lack of flat water fun, can't cartwheel on eddy lines so if its a river with not much playing and lots of flat water give me a C1 if not give me a Oc1.
Hope this helps you, so when do we find out what this is all about, or should I say when do we get to test your new design.
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eddyhops
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
N/A, but...
That's a pretty general question, like asking "Why are drivers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun cars, or motorcycles for that matter?"
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
N/A, but...
I've known a few open boaters that hold too much pride to their roll... rolling/attemting rolls in situations I wouldn't. I think, as an open boater, we have more of an option of "out-&-in" types of flips. I weigh the ramificatications when I'm going over... it is not always better to attemt a roll.
One could actually answer the question with the question itself:
"Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker..."
because they have, "little to no rolling skills on average..."
"Why do OC'ers have little or no rolling skills on average?"
because they, "have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker..."
3. If you where (are?) an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
A four foot boat that doesn't take on water, will accomodate up to 300 lbs with minimum hindrance to perfomance, handles like a Spanish Fly, fast as an Edge, and comes with a free prescription of xylocaine for my knees?
JD
N/A, but...
That's a pretty general question, like asking "Why are drivers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun cars, or motorcycles for that matter?"
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
N/A, but...
I've known a few open boaters that hold too much pride to their roll... rolling/attemting rolls in situations I wouldn't. I think, as an open boater, we have more of an option of "out-&-in" types of flips. I weigh the ramificatications when I'm going over... it is not always better to attemt a roll.
One could actually answer the question with the question itself:
"Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker..."
because they have, "little to no rolling skills on average..."
"Why do OC'ers have little or no rolling skills on average?"
because they, "have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker..."
3. If you where (are?) an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
A four foot boat that doesn't take on water, will accomodate up to 300 lbs with minimum hindrance to perfomance, handles like a Spanish Fly, fast as an Edge, and comes with a free prescription of xylocaine for my knees?
JD
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
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- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
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the great gonzo
- Paddling Benefactor
- Posts: 1718
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:03 am
- Location: Montréal, Québec
What are ya up to? Can't wait to find out:
Well, my priorities for C and OC boats are somewhat different: it's kinda hard to really rate it ( and also changing) but I'll try:
A = High; B = secondary; C = not important
OC (I use this mainly for general riverrunning and big water):
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed B
Durability A
Playability B
Dryness A
Creekability B
Intermediate Skill's Boat C
Advanced Skill's Boat A
C1 (use this mainly to play):
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed C
Durability A
Playability A
Dryness not applicable
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat C
Advanced Skill's Boat A
martin
martin's paddlin lesson of the weekend:
missing your line at McCoys on the Ottawa with your skirt not properly attached and no air bags in the bow leads to doing bow pirouettes right into the hole at right side Horseshoe and ultimately a swim, but provides great entertainment to your paddling buddies....
Well, my priorities for C and OC boats are somewhat different: it's kinda hard to really rate it ( and also changing) but I'll try:
A = High; B = secondary; C = not important
OC (I use this mainly for general riverrunning and big water):
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed B
Durability A
Playability B
Dryness A
Creekability B
Intermediate Skill's Boat C
Advanced Skill's Boat A
C1 (use this mainly to play):
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed C
Durability A
Playability A
Dryness not applicable
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat C
Advanced Skill's Boat A
martin
martin's paddlin lesson of the weekend:
missing your line at McCoys on the Ottawa with your skirt not properly attached and no air bags in the bow leads to doing bow pirouettes right into the hole at right side Horseshoe and ultimately a swim, but provides great entertainment to your paddling buddies....
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
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the other Martyn
So Craig,
I think Martin forgot to mention in his list of rankings that the boat should be green and rotomolded ...
The beauty of OC runs down McCoys is that there is way less prep time - you don't even have to think about your skirt and can get trashed in Horseshoe providing all sorts of amusement for your buddies.
For a general river running boat (OC1 or OC2), here's my ranking:
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed A
Durability A
Playability C
Dryness A
Creekability A
Intermediate Skill's Boat B
Advanced Skill's Boat A
for a play boat (like for dropping into holes and then regretting my actions) :
Primary Stability A
Secondary Stability B
Hull Speed C
Durability A
Playability A
Dryness B
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat C
Advanced Skill's Boat A
Martyn, aka "the other guy with a Prelude"
I think Martin forgot to mention in his list of rankings that the boat should be green and rotomolded ...
The beauty of OC runs down McCoys is that there is way less prep time - you don't even have to think about your skirt and can get trashed in Horseshoe providing all sorts of amusement for your buddies.
For a general river running boat (OC1 or OC2), here's my ranking:
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed A
Durability A
Playability C
Dryness A
Creekability A
Intermediate Skill's Boat B
Advanced Skill's Boat A
for a play boat (like for dropping into holes and then regretting my actions) :
Primary Stability A
Secondary Stability B
Hull Speed C
Durability A
Playability A
Dryness B
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat C
Advanced Skill's Boat A
Martyn, aka "the other guy with a Prelude"
Here's my vote. I'll stick my neck out a bit, being a beginner/pseudo intermediate OCer. This is based on 1 season's paddling.
For a general river running boat (OC1 or OC2),
Primary Stability Midway between A and B. Some initial stability would be good.
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed A
Durability A
Playability B
Dryness A
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat A
Advanced Skill's Boat B
for a play boat:
Primary Stability A
Secondary Stability B
Hull Speed B
Durability A
Playability A
Dryness B
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat B
Advanced Skill's Boat A
For a general river running boat (OC1 or OC2),
Primary Stability Midway between A and B. Some initial stability would be good.
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed A
Durability A
Playability B
Dryness A
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat A
Advanced Skill's Boat B
for a play boat:
Primary Stability A
Secondary Stability B
Hull Speed B
Durability A
Playability A
Dryness B
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat B
Advanced Skill's Boat A
-- Cya
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
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- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
ratings
OK Craig, here're my ideas. I've ranked the items as best I could.
Primary Stability 6
Secondary Stability 1
Hull Speed 2=
Durability 3=
Playability 3=
Dryness 4
Creekability 3=
Intermediate Skill's Boat 5
Advanced Skill's Boat 2=
I'm going to add:
Lightweight 3=
This comes off about 3 years OC paddling, mostly in a Detonator, but also time spent in C1s and other OCs. I tend to use a C1 for pure playboating most of the time just because the rivers I paddle are often not deep enough or powerful enough to do much with an OC. On bigger water I'll playboat in the OC more and admittedly I'm getting better at playing it on the smaller rivers too.
Primary Stability 6
Secondary Stability 1
Hull Speed 2=
Durability 3=
Playability 3=
Dryness 4
Creekability 3=
Intermediate Skill's Boat 5
Advanced Skill's Boat 2=
I'm going to add:
Lightweight 3=
This comes off about 3 years OC paddling, mostly in a Detonator, but also time spent in C1s and other OCs. I tend to use a C1 for pure playboating most of the time just because the rivers I paddle are often not deep enough or powerful enough to do much with an OC. On bigger water I'll playboat in the OC more and admittedly I'm getting better at playing it on the smaller rivers too.
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
I haven't paddle OC for over a year, so my feedback is for C-1. I'm an intermediate currently infatuated with my Groove. Class II play in the Groove, and Class III river running in my Forplay are the games of choice right now.
A = High; B = secondary; C = not important
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed A (in a perfect world)
Durability B
Playability A
Dryness C (I'm never dry)
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat A
Advanced Skill's Boat B
Lightweight A (the Groove has me spoiled)
A = High; B = secondary; C = not important
Primary Stability B
Secondary Stability A
Hull Speed A (in a perfect world)
Durability B
Playability A
Dryness C (I'm never dry)
Creekability C
Intermediate Skill's Boat A
Advanced Skill's Boat B
Lightweight A (the Groove has me spoiled)
Cone Bone
randy@artisansgroup.com
randy@artisansgroup.com
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
leave it to the KIWI (NZMatt) to use numbers rather than letters like "everyone" else... "thanks Matt." (It really doesn't matter...)
By the way...... big hat's off to Matt for showing up at OC Nat's and busting his butt to keep the competitor's flowing at the start area.... "there's good karma in ya' futcha'!!"
By the way...... big hat's off to Matt for showing up at OC Nat's and busting his butt to keep the competitor's flowing at the start area.... "there's good karma in ya' futcha'!!"
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
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- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
numbers...letters...keys on a keyboard :)
No worries Craig - gotta keep things interesting...besides you didn't specify and I just couldn't follow a trend (if I did I'd be 'yaking!)
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
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sbroam
- CBoats.net Staff
- Posts: 3969
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:12 am
- Location: Lexington, SC
- Contact:
OK
All this talk about open boats inspired me to take mine out today. Forgot how much fun that boat can be - I do love my Viper 12, its a shame its about wore to pieces.
Though I normally C-1 these days, I started in open boats. I find that I paddle them differently, enjoying the differences and the similarities in turn. I certainly run rapids differently and play holes a lot less aggressively in the OC-1
Primary Stability - low
Secondary Stability - high
Hull Speed - high
Durability - medium (I'm not as hard on them as I used to be)
Playability - medium
Dryness - high (or low to keep the challenge up!)
Creekability - medium/high
Intermediate Skill's Boat - low
Advanced Skill's Boat - high, but define advanced skills*
*For me this is not rodeo, I gave up on that a long while ago... For me, I think I want something slalomlike.
Scott
Though I normally C-1 these days, I started in open boats. I find that I paddle them differently, enjoying the differences and the similarities in turn. I certainly run rapids differently and play holes a lot less aggressively in the OC-1
Primary Stability - low
Secondary Stability - high
Hull Speed - high
Durability - medium (I'm not as hard on them as I used to be)
Playability - medium
Dryness - high (or low to keep the challenge up!)
Creekability - medium/high
Intermediate Skill's Boat - low
Advanced Skill's Boat - high, but define advanced skills*
*For me this is not rodeo, I gave up on that a long while ago... For me, I think I want something slalomlike.
Scott
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