why should a normal paddler not be able to paddle it?
great balance is a habit, I know what I'm talking about
technique.......yes, you need some technique (slalom boats are so not forgiving), but this is also something you can learn as a usual paddler if you are willing to.
fez, you paddle at least as well as I do, and I am able to ride a slalom boat. I'm even more confident in it than when sitting in my whitewater c1. The newer models are more ballet-dancer-like but still glide well and not as stable as my old stardust you got from me, but it's just a question of habit. I know a former national team member who told me, every time he gets a new boat, even he needs some sessions to get used to it and does a lot of rolling the first few runs.
maybe we won't reach Martikan's speed, power and elegance, but paddling will be possible for us, too. As I said, it's just a question of habit, and then even the tricky slalom race boat becomes a boat you'd go "rescue the devil's grandmother from hades"
hm, about plastic: I didn't mean they're not usable for races, I just meant, an amitious racer wouldn't do it, due to less good gliding abilities
Martikan C1 in Plastic?
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
yes shure I can ride a normal slalom boat that is wide like mine. And I guess I could paddle the Martikan also with more or less grace 
. But would it be fun ? (I don´t race anyway) Or would it just be a tipsy fight to stay upright...
It seems from what they tell that the Martikan is not a normal boat, it is a boat specially designed from and for Martikan, narrow and round. And I guess his balance is way better than that of the majority of cboaters.
Has anybody here tried it actually ?
. But would it be fun ? (I don´t race anyway) Or would it just be a tipsy fight to stay upright...It seems from what they tell that the Martikan is not a normal boat, it is a boat specially designed from and for Martikan, narrow and round. And I guess his balance is way better than that of the majority of cboaters.
Has anybody here tried it actually ?
imagine
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bearboater
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TheKrikkitWars
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I'm currently trying to locate one, they're rare as hen's teeth in the UK though, which might be an inditement of its paddlability, or just a rarity thing.fez wrote:Has anybody here tried it actually ?
Out of interest, how do you find paddling a slalom boat recreationally, I'm looking to get one as a more intersting alternative to my Jefe when teaching.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
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the great gonzo
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I have a slalom boat, and I use it almost exclusively recreationally.
I only enter one or two races a year and usually end up getting beaten soundly by the 13year old cadets...
..
But I love it for riverrunning, particularl on big water. The speed opens up moves that ar impossible in a short boat and enders are pretty spectacular. I've even taken it down some creeks, but it is, at least at my skill level, not really recommended.
As for using it for instructing, the problem there is that it does not have much room for gear (first aid kit, video camera, pin kit, all that stuff) and it's much slower getting in and out of the boat than an open canoe, so I use the Outrage exclusively for instructing.
TGG!
I only enter one or two races a year and usually end up getting beaten soundly by the 13year old cadets...
..But I love it for riverrunning, particularl on big water. The speed opens up moves that ar impossible in a short boat and enders are pretty spectacular. I've even taken it down some creeks, but it is, at least at my skill level, not really recommended.
As for using it for instructing, the problem there is that it does not have much room for gear (first aid kit, video camera, pin kit, all that stuff) and it's much slower getting in and out of the boat than an open canoe, so I use the Outrage exclusively for instructing.
TGG!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
I don't quite understand the reasoning behind Vajda introducing the Martikan in plastic.
Given the low price point it seems this boat would be targeted toward youth, beginners, rec racers and boaters not interested in composites, but the advanced design and skills of the high performance paddlers that paddle the composite version would suggest otherwise.
Seems like one of Vajda's more user friendly designs may have been a better choice if they are indeed targeting paddlers looking for a low cost boat.
Given the low price point it seems this boat would be targeted toward youth, beginners, rec racers and boaters not interested in composites, but the advanced design and skills of the high performance paddlers that paddle the composite version would suggest otherwise.
Seems like one of Vajda's more user friendly designs may have been a better choice if they are indeed targeting paddlers looking for a low cost boat.
I hear rumors that Martikan's seat is basically a piece of neoprene sheet on the hull. That might be part of his stability.fez wrote: It seems from what they tell that the Martikan is not a normal boat, it is a boat specially designed from and for Martikan, narrow and round. And I guess his balance is way better than that of the majority of cboaters.
Has anybody here tried it actually ?
My summer project is to update my Stinger (loosely derived from a '96 Estanguet) to the new specs. A tri-hull similar to my open boat, but I'm widening the bow, narrowing the stern, but keeping the basic 25" width and flat hull. Should be easy to paddle with a reasonable seat height. I'm getting too old to suffer unnecessarily.
Bob P
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insolence
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fun???
the first times (depending on how often one uses it) it's depressing.
When I got, for the first time in my life, a modern design slalom boat (not as radical as the latest martikan design, but already quite tricky), on the first ride I swam three times on a distance of barely 500 m and was close to smash the whole thing into pieces. With two, three months time gone by, that boat had brought me to doing things I had been dreaming of but never succeded before (with my old and more forgiving boat)
well, it depends on what you want. Racing is one thing, recreational use another, but for this too, a slalom boat or anyone that's difficult to paddle can be helpful when you want to rocket up your skills. For whitewater they don't serve that well since usually a more forgiving and safe boat is wanted, and for the reasons Great Gonzo mentioned (no space for gear and so). But to excercise or for riding easy sections, it can be a good choice
about the design: all the newer designs look like that. The pros at my home town have plastex boats that look also round and narrow. It's the general development in slalom C1 design, I guess
the first times (depending on how often one uses it) it's depressing.
When I got, for the first time in my life, a modern design slalom boat (not as radical as the latest martikan design, but already quite tricky), on the first ride I swam three times on a distance of barely 500 m and was close to smash the whole thing into pieces. With two, three months time gone by, that boat had brought me to doing things I had been dreaming of but never succeded before (with my old and more forgiving boat)
well, it depends on what you want. Racing is one thing, recreational use another, but for this too, a slalom boat or anyone that's difficult to paddle can be helpful when you want to rocket up your skills. For whitewater they don't serve that well since usually a more forgiving and safe boat is wanted, and for the reasons Great Gonzo mentioned (no space for gear and so). But to excercise or for riding easy sections, it can be a good choice
about the design: all the newer designs look like that. The pros at my home town have plastex boats that look also round and narrow. It's the general development in slalom C1 design, I guess
it's gettin hot
I MAKE THE WATER BURN
purple orange flames
blaze where I put my paddle
I MAKE THE WATER BURN
purple orange flames
blaze where I put my paddle
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the great gonzo
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insolence, I never wrote that a slalom boat didn't work well as a whitewater riverrunner. They actually do! I don't know what boat you paddle, but my Galasport Loco is an absolute blast in big water class 4 rapids, very stable and predictable.
It's for instructing where I find they are not ideal.
TGG!
It's for instructing where I find they are not ideal.
TGG!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
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bearboater
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my current slalom boat is the only boat I have it's my everything, i have paddled things from class 4 tight creeks, to 40,000 cfs big water. i am switching from a loco to a new supremo. actually picking it up in augsburg when i go back to europe for the world ranking races...
i have tried the martikan, and i don't know how good you are, but learning slalom technique is difficult, and many other boats make it way easier. the think about the martikan, is that you cannot change your body position. watch martikan sometime, when I was in Aus this winter, i watched almost every session if his i could. he doesn't move forward or back, he stays at the neutral point of the boat. this, is unbelievably hard to do, and especially impressive considering how much speed he maintains in everything. he only moves out of his sweet spot for gates, or if he isn't in the right spot. same thing with Sideris Tsadisias (augsburg as well)-probably the next best thing in canoe slalom. with most other boats, you have a much bigger sweet spot, and a much wider range of an area to flat turn, and much much much more stability, the wings on a martikan are huge. i paddled a converted toro last year because a friend had it, and it wasn't too unlike the martikan i tried.
i agree about the statement made about the reasoning for the martikan in stryolight, and am not sure.
Bob P, martikans seat is higher than mine. he is around 3 to 3.5 inches. it's a all in one system from vajda made specifically for him(shaped to his legs) bulkhead and seat are carbon.
krikkiitwars, i assume the one you saw was from hydrasportsuk right? i have seen 2 outfitting (kits is the wrong word, because it is) kits, one has a seat cut at like 4 inches(10 cm) and a shaved piece of foam for the bulkhead. and then the super hard to get carbo-bulkhead. was the one you saw outfitted by hydrasports or vajda?
insolence, what are you talking about creeking or racing when you saw the pros have round and narrow c1's? sideris paddles a martikan, i think the other german c1's are in lizards or the judge from double dutch. and we should grab a pint when i am in augsburg, i will be picking up and outfitting my new boat on the 26th of july. i'll have to get your #.
cheers
i'm not trying to dissuade anyone from slalom, but boats like martikans are very funny, it's designed for a specific trait, and style. in that yeah, he makes it look easy, but it's super edgy, and extremely difficult to paddle well. look at any video you can find on the internet, and check who else is in a martikan, you will maybe see 1-5(at the most) people. i can think of only 5 people i know who have ever owned, or still own a martikan.
i think you would be better of ordering a club level boat from the boreal designs that took over the itomco molds, or waiting for the boat that my roommate is designing for Nelo-sport, sister company to bracsa sport.
martin, how is your boat holding up?
i like this thread.
-isaac
-ids
i have tried the martikan, and i don't know how good you are, but learning slalom technique is difficult, and many other boats make it way easier. the think about the martikan, is that you cannot change your body position. watch martikan sometime, when I was in Aus this winter, i watched almost every session if his i could. he doesn't move forward or back, he stays at the neutral point of the boat. this, is unbelievably hard to do, and especially impressive considering how much speed he maintains in everything. he only moves out of his sweet spot for gates, or if he isn't in the right spot. same thing with Sideris Tsadisias (augsburg as well)-probably the next best thing in canoe slalom. with most other boats, you have a much bigger sweet spot, and a much wider range of an area to flat turn, and much much much more stability, the wings on a martikan are huge. i paddled a converted toro last year because a friend had it, and it wasn't too unlike the martikan i tried.
i agree about the statement made about the reasoning for the martikan in stryolight, and am not sure.
Bob P, martikans seat is higher than mine. he is around 3 to 3.5 inches. it's a all in one system from vajda made specifically for him(shaped to his legs) bulkhead and seat are carbon.
krikkiitwars, i assume the one you saw was from hydrasportsuk right? i have seen 2 outfitting (kits is the wrong word, because it is) kits, one has a seat cut at like 4 inches(10 cm) and a shaved piece of foam for the bulkhead. and then the super hard to get carbo-bulkhead. was the one you saw outfitted by hydrasports or vajda?
insolence, what are you talking about creeking or racing when you saw the pros have round and narrow c1's? sideris paddles a martikan, i think the other german c1's are in lizards or the judge from double dutch. and we should grab a pint when i am in augsburg, i will be picking up and outfitting my new boat on the 26th of july. i'll have to get your #.
cheers
i'm not trying to dissuade anyone from slalom, but boats like martikans are very funny, it's designed for a specific trait, and style. in that yeah, he makes it look easy, but it's super edgy, and extremely difficult to paddle well. look at any video you can find on the internet, and check who else is in a martikan, you will maybe see 1-5(at the most) people. i can think of only 5 people i know who have ever owned, or still own a martikan.
i think you would be better of ordering a club level boat from the boreal designs that took over the itomco molds, or waiting for the boat that my roommate is designing for Nelo-sport, sister company to bracsa sport.
martin, how is your boat holding up?
i like this thread.
-isaac
-ids
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
Hey Bearboater,
Thanks for the insight on what's going on in the slalom world. Do you know what happened to the Canoe World Series? I've seen they ran the 2009 Australian Open but the Canoe World Series website seems to have disappeared completely.
You mentioned Boreal Design, are you refering to the Canadian sea kayak manufacturer? That would be interesting if a major North American manufacturer was going to start building slalom boats.
I've seen a few iTomco boats, they looked good. Did he quit building boats?
Thanks for the insight on what's going on in the slalom world. Do you know what happened to the Canoe World Series? I've seen they ran the 2009 Australian Open but the Canoe World Series website seems to have disappeared completely.
You mentioned Boreal Design, are you refering to the Canadian sea kayak manufacturer? That would be interesting if a major North American manufacturer was going to start building slalom boats.
I've seen a few iTomco boats, they looked good. Did he quit building boats?
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bearboater
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due to the new way we are doing world cups, and world championships, the world series races have been effectively taken over by the ICF as world ranking races. so the races will still happen, however they are icf sanctioned races that give you world ranking points(instead of money and a completely separate series as last couple years), they allow up to the top 6 per country.
that was the word on the street from Tom Hewitt. I don't know what the deal is anymore. he makes more wind boards, but he's on this forum from time to time. just google the website, and talk to him. Last we talked, he was trying to get boreal to make the boats, and he would move to more prosperous tasks. The best thing to do would be to email tom if you have any interest in the boats. i think boreal made like 20-30 club(all kevlar boats) but I think tom can still put out a carbon/carbon kev boat of a few models at least. I think he still has Nathan Davis' kayak the APS, and I think he might still have the absolute, the boat that benn designed early last year now benn will paddle for galasport, and also will be designing a boat for them, supposedly this fall.
cheers
-ids
that was the word on the street from Tom Hewitt. I don't know what the deal is anymore. he makes more wind boards, but he's on this forum from time to time. just google the website, and talk to him. Last we talked, he was trying to get boreal to make the boats, and he would move to more prosperous tasks. The best thing to do would be to email tom if you have any interest in the boats. i think boreal made like 20-30 club(all kevlar boats) but I think tom can still put out a carbon/carbon kev boat of a few models at least. I think he still has Nathan Davis' kayak the APS, and I think he might still have the absolute, the boat that benn designed early last year now benn will paddle for galasport, and also will be designing a boat for them, supposedly this fall.
cheers
-ids
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
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insolence
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[quote="bearboater"]
insolence, what are you talking about creeking or racing when you saw the pros have round and narrow c1's? sideris paddles a martikan, i think the other german c1's are in lizards or the judge from double dutch. and we should grab a pint when i am in augsburg, i will be picking up and outfitting my new boat on the 26th of july. i'll have to get your #.
cheers
hi bearboater - sorry, but what exactly do you mean by this question?
I just saw that the two of them, at least Christos (who is training and well befriended with sideris) had a plastex going.And that neraly all the Augsburg C1 crowd has narrow and round-bottomed canoes (Christos, Sideris, and Vitali and then there are three younger guys who use Sideris or Christos' old ones or have Vaijda/Galasport). About the rest of german C1 I don't know.
For me, I have a Galasport from 2007, it could be a macao, but I'm not sure. This boat was given to me by one of the Augsburg pros in winter, when he had got a new one.
I agree (and never said the opposite) that slalom is difficult - but if you don't compare to pro racers and just want to paddle for fun, I think it is possible, as long as one wants it and puts on some effort, to learn to paddle such a boat a bit. I agree that the class of martikan is unique - I don't know enough to be able to make a clear statement, but of all the CBoaters I have seen, Sideris might perhaps be the only one who has martikan's style.
As far as creeking is concernded, I personally would not like it too much - big water yes, but otherwise in whitewater a boat that is more forgiving and provides some space for my camera equipment an so on. But thats just a personal liking, and considering that a slalom boat IS less forgiving, it might not be the joice of everyone for whitewater neither.Sorry, great gonzo, I didn't mean that they are not suitable at all. Actually my Galasport is easier (It has some chines) to paddle and to navigate due to its precision, but there's no space for gear and a plastic boat feels better on the river for me.
insolence, what are you talking about creeking or racing when you saw the pros have round and narrow c1's? sideris paddles a martikan, i think the other german c1's are in lizards or the judge from double dutch. and we should grab a pint when i am in augsburg, i will be picking up and outfitting my new boat on the 26th of july. i'll have to get your #.
cheers
hi bearboater - sorry, but what exactly do you mean by this question?
I just saw that the two of them, at least Christos (who is training and well befriended with sideris) had a plastex going.And that neraly all the Augsburg C1 crowd has narrow and round-bottomed canoes (Christos, Sideris, and Vitali and then there are three younger guys who use Sideris or Christos' old ones or have Vaijda/Galasport). About the rest of german C1 I don't know.
For me, I have a Galasport from 2007, it could be a macao, but I'm not sure. This boat was given to me by one of the Augsburg pros in winter, when he had got a new one.
I agree (and never said the opposite) that slalom is difficult - but if you don't compare to pro racers and just want to paddle for fun, I think it is possible, as long as one wants it and puts on some effort, to learn to paddle such a boat a bit. I agree that the class of martikan is unique - I don't know enough to be able to make a clear statement, but of all the CBoaters I have seen, Sideris might perhaps be the only one who has martikan's style.
As far as creeking is concernded, I personally would not like it too much - big water yes, but otherwise in whitewater a boat that is more forgiving and provides some space for my camera equipment an so on. But thats just a personal liking, and considering that a slalom boat IS less forgiving, it might not be the joice of everyone for whitewater neither.Sorry, great gonzo, I didn't mean that they are not suitable at all. Actually my Galasport is easier (It has some chines) to paddle and to navigate due to its precision, but there's no space for gear and a plastic boat feels better on the river for me.
it's gettin hot
I MAKE THE WATER BURN
purple orange flames
blaze where I put my paddle
I MAKE THE WATER BURN
purple orange flames
blaze where I put my paddle
-
bearboater
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Insolence, I was confused by your statement the "pro's" and didn't understand if you were talking plastic or slalom boats.
but yeah christos and sideris are cousins(or so i have been told many times), they were both born in augsburg... hence they train together. christos' boat is a widened martikan, very similar to the absolute c1 that benn made. it looks good, but i think that he could use a martikan, and be faster. i am jealous of you having augsburg to train at all of the time. few courses are as fun, and as functional as augsburg. and i agree with you about sideris, he will likely be the next best thing. he won jr. worlds last year by something like 12 seconds. and went to being the first boat of the german team if i'm not mistaken?
enjoy augsburg-will you be there for wc final?
cheers
but yeah christos and sideris are cousins(or so i have been told many times), they were both born in augsburg... hence they train together. christos' boat is a widened martikan, very similar to the absolute c1 that benn made. it looks good, but i think that he could use a martikan, and be faster. i am jealous of you having augsburg to train at all of the time. few courses are as fun, and as functional as augsburg. and i agree with you about sideris, he will likely be the next best thing. he won jr. worlds last year by something like 12 seconds. and went to being the first boat of the german team if i'm not mistaken?
enjoy augsburg-will you be there for wc final?
cheers
Last edited by bearboater on Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
Augsburg is a great city.
I spent three years in a small town not far from there with many hours at the Eiskanal watching and photographing races. Unfortunately I had no boat at the time. That course is responsible for my interest in whitewater and racing specifically. I saw the '84 Pre-Worlds and '85 Worlds there.
How does public access to the course work? Can any whitewater boater or rec racer get a workout any weekend or weeknight or is the course limited to elite level racer training? What does it cost for the general public to use the course?
I don't recall any sort of pump facility, does it just depend on adjacent river flow and runs continuous? I'm just wondering how cost effective it has been since the '72 Olympics.
I would love to go back sometime.
I spent three years in a small town not far from there with many hours at the Eiskanal watching and photographing races. Unfortunately I had no boat at the time. That course is responsible for my interest in whitewater and racing specifically. I saw the '84 Pre-Worlds and '85 Worlds there.
How does public access to the course work? Can any whitewater boater or rec racer get a workout any weekend or weeknight or is the course limited to elite level racer training? What does it cost for the general public to use the course?
I don't recall any sort of pump facility, does it just depend on adjacent river flow and runs continuous? I'm just wondering how cost effective it has been since the '72 Olympics.
I would love to go back sometime.