Knee straps
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Knee straps
Has any of you ever used knee straps in a C1? My current setup uses thigh straps but my knees have a little upward movement. I don't really want to build foam braces (not like a bulkhead but individual foam peices on each side) and was thinking that knee straps would be a good alternative.
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CosmikDebris
- CBoats Addict
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- Location: White Salmon, WA
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
Knee Straps
I use a combination knee/thigh strap in my C1 and really like the system - it's very similar in concept to the Mike Yee system in that there's only one buckle per side and the straps equalize between the two halves, but I just put it together out of random buckles and two inch webbing. The strap is attached at the front on the outside of my knee, runs across the knee and through a center attachement point then to a buckle on the top of my thigh. The other end of the strap is anchored to the old seat post anchors. I've found this to be very secure and to minimise knee movement. I was initially using thigh straps and then a seat belt because I kept nearly falling out of the boat, but this system keeps me in there good and tight.
This isn't the best picture, but it's the best I have. Note that this still shows the seat belt which I still had in there during my early trials. I may retain this for pure park and play, but I haven't decided yet. Here's the pic:
<img src="http://isc.astro.cornell.edu/~don/pictu ... .sized.jpg" width = "450">
In my open boat I have completely separate knee and thigh straps, but I think I prefer this equalizing system - fewer buckles and more secure.
This isn't the best picture, but it's the best I have. Note that this still shows the seat belt which I still had in there during my early trials. I may retain this for pure park and play, but I haven't decided yet. Here's the pic:
<img src="http://isc.astro.cornell.edu/~don/pictu ... .sized.jpg" width = "450">
In my open boat I have completely separate knee and thigh straps, but I think I prefer this equalizing system - fewer buckles and more secure.
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
These are in my open boat, but will find their way into my C1 this winter.
[img]http://www.wwslalom.org/newboat/thystrap.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.wwslalom.org/newboat/thystrap.jpg[/img]
Bob P
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
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Ha! I was going to start a thread saying how much i appreciate this board because we don't have too many trolls on board that flame everyone.. but now after seeing the post about Bob's legs I don't know 
! (actually after seeing them legs im not sure what to think 
Just kidding, I *really do* enjoy the exchange on this board... doesnt get as flamey as the yakkers can on boatertalk/boatwerks! Great info. and yes, Craig, I've valued your posts.. which reminds me, what ever came of your survey post?
M.
! (actually after seeing them legs im not sure what to think Just kidding, I *really do* enjoy the exchange on this board... doesnt get as flamey as the yakkers can on boatertalk/boatwerks! Great info. and yes, Craig, I've valued your posts.. which reminds me, what ever came of your survey post?
M.
-- Cya
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chucknaill
knee straps
I outfitted my GTX with double straps. I had considered a lap belt, but did not like the idea. I do not adjust the ones over the knees, just the thigh straps. So far they have worked really well. I took a d ring and cut out the thick part in the middle and folded it over, then attached them to the boat. Just an inch or so apart. Both are attached to the same buckles fastened to the pedistal. THis allows me to adjust both straps as needed during a paddle.Regards
Chuck
NZMatt, if I understand you correctly you're saying that the thigh and knee strap are the same peice of webbing, so if you cinch down on the strap it tightens both? I was looking at mounting some of the Mike Yee knee straps but I like your idea better. Problem is that the way my boat is set up(fence-railish conversion) my thigh straps terminate well before the point where I would want to put knee straps but looking at it it may work. Which brings me to a reply to aldenb's question, this is the first decked boat I've outfitted/converted and it was much more than I had expected. I did it out at my mother's place (she has garage ) and it's a disaster area. PVC, ABS, minicell shavings all over the place not to mention one spilled can of contact cement, various other adhesives leaving thier mark on the work area and one dead Dermell but it got done. I'll take some pics of it soon and post them maybe you guys could grade it and offer up some suggestions. I was hoping to take it out on a maiden voyage fri but can't find anyone here in Richmond that wants to play hookey for a half a day 
. Oh well maybe sat or sunday.
) and it's a disaster area. PVC, ABS, minicell shavings all over the place not to mention one spilled can of contact cement, various other adhesives leaving thier mark on the work area and one dead Dermell but it got done. I'll take some pics of it soon and post them maybe you guys could grade it and offer up some suggestions. I was hoping to take it out on a maiden voyage fri but can't find anyone here in Richmond that wants to play hookey for a half a day . Oh well maybe sat or sunday.
Hey Marshall!
Marshall, give me a call if you can paddle today, Friday, or this weekend. It would be good to finally hook up with you and we can take a look at your outfitting. My work/cell number is, 405-3767.
And, Bob, I'm gonna have to agree with Craig and Pat. You do have nice looking legs, but maybe you could add leg extensions, squats, and lunges into your workout ! Just adding more droll/troll humor.
And, Alden, there are two things I dislike about c-1'ing: 1) outfitting the boat; 2) finding and repairing all the FREAKING LEAKS in my glass boats
!
Now, I gotta go see a client.
KNeal
And, Bob, I'm gonna have to agree with Craig and Pat. You do have nice looking legs, but maybe you could add leg extensions, squats, and lunges into your workout
! Just adding more droll/troll humor.And, Alden, there are two things I dislike about c-1'ing: 1) outfitting the boat; 2) finding and repairing all the FREAKING LEAKS in my glass boats
!Now, I gotta go see a client.
KNeal
Hate.....
Alden
HATE is such a harsh word! However, when I found I cut the plastic sheeting for the Micro about an inch too short last night I was in SERIOUS HATE!!!!
And things were going well - then a measuring set back – I even measured 3x. Next time I’ll use a string instead of a metal tape measure.
I guess it’s that love / hate thing of a challenge that C types excel at!
Adlen and Others:
However, this has changed into my re-thinking my approach to the outfitting – I hope this leads to a set up that works even better. So of course any photos folks have on double strapping or minimalistic outfitting would be appreciated (since we seem to be posting lots of photos these days
).
My intent with the Micro is to keep as much open space as possible inside the boat, verses my other outfitting projects (in which I crammed as much mini cell into the boat as possible – to lock me in and to add flotation).
My though is this boat might also work as a multi-day-trip boat and maybe I can use a small OC bag in the front for flotation.
Therefore my question on the double strapping is: Does the use of one strap per side create a single point of failure that I should be concerned with? Or should one use one strap for the upper and one for the lower strapping? What do others do?
Also how far back from the front of the knee and how far up the hull should the mounting points be (roughly)? Do I want to have each of the strap points curve over the leg or can they run as a straight line off the leg to the hull (I’m thinking downward pressure is good here)?
Another pressing problem is the mounting of the seat. The plan now is to use the existing rear pillar to build on to and then use a piece of aluminum that is bent so that it warps about the interior of the hull from side to side as the lateral anchor points.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance!
HATE is such a harsh word! However, when I found I cut the plastic sheeting for the Micro about an inch too short last night I was in SERIOUS HATE!!!!
And things were going well - then a measuring set back – I even measured 3x. Next time I’ll use a string instead of a metal tape measure.
I guess it’s that love / hate thing of a challenge that C types excel at!
Adlen and Others:
However, this has changed into my re-thinking my approach to the outfitting – I hope this leads to a set up that works even better. So of course any photos folks have on double strapping or minimalistic outfitting would be appreciated (since we seem to be posting lots of photos these days
). My intent with the Micro is to keep as much open space as possible inside the boat, verses my other outfitting projects (in which I crammed as much mini cell into the boat as possible – to lock me in and to add flotation).
My though is this boat might also work as a multi-day-trip boat and maybe I can use a small OC bag in the front for flotation.
Therefore my question on the double strapping is: Does the use of one strap per side create a single point of failure that I should be concerned with? Or should one use one strap for the upper and one for the lower strapping? What do others do?
Also how far back from the front of the knee and how far up the hull should the mounting points be (roughly)? Do I want to have each of the strap points curve over the leg or can they run as a straight line off the leg to the hull (I’m thinking downward pressure is good here)?
Another pressing problem is the mounting of the seat. The plan now is to use the existing rear pillar to build on to and then use a piece of aluminum that is bent so that it warps about the interior of the hull from side to side as the lateral anchor points.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance!
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
Single, equalizing straps.
Hi Folks, I'll do my best to answer questions posed.
MShelton - yes, the thigh and knee straps are on a "single" piece of webbing. I'll try to take some more photos to show this more clearly. I say "single" because there is actually two pieces - one either side of the buckle. The piece running from the buckle to the center goes through a slot in the saddle (it's an old gyromax saddle) then back over my knee to the front side anchor (a slot I cut in the plastic base plate of the saddle). This is the one that gets cranked down for paddling. The one running from the buckle to the outside of the boat goes straight to the rear side anchor (two holes melted in the webbing and locked into place with bolts through the old kayak seat holes - these bolts also hold the hip pads in place). It's the same concept as in the Mike Yee system (which I put in the tandem OC I just outfitted).
The way the center anchor is placed in this setup, I've got it slightly further forward than I would for a single thigh strap and slightly further back than for a single knee strap. The outer anchors are in about the same places as they would "normally" be (I think from my very limited experience). Because my C1 saddle is lower than in the picture of a similar system in Bob's OC1, the front anchor is further forwrad and the strap goes diagonally back across my knee to the center anchor. This is kind of hard to describe, but I'll try to take a picture and post that. I've found it to be very secure and you can really tighten the straps down.
PAC - If you've got any "kayak" floatation bags around, they'd be great in the bow of your micro, especially the ones designed for old long boats. I use "kayak" stern playboat flotation in the bow of the Special. Fits perfectly for that volume. In the back I use an old set of "bow bags" designed for old long boats to go in front of the kayakers foot pegs. These also fit pretty well. A lot of people seem to forgo flotation these days, but I don't think (from recent personal experiences) that that's a good idea - especially in a creeker.
As to creating a single point for failure - I hadn't thought about that. I haven't had them fail yet. My biggest concerns for failure would be the straps working their way through the tri-glides holding them in place or the webbing pulling off the hip pad bolts on the rear side anchor. For the later case I've actually melted an extra set of holes in the webbing so I can do a field-repair if necessary, but so far I haven't noticed any tendency to tear (after maybe a dozen days paddling).
I have my knee strap side anchors pretty low to give the strap a better grip on my knee and I think roughly equal to wear the front of my knee is. Again, I'll try to take a pic where I'm actually in the boat. I may be misremembering exactly where things are (I've been playing with a lto of different boats and outftting project recently). I'd try to maximmise contact between my leg and the strap.
As to alumnium stays - that's what my entire saddle is mounted to - a stay bent to fit the hull that goes from side to side at the front using the old kayak thigh-brace holes, another stay whcih was originally mounted to the old seat bolt holes, but now I've actually drilled holes in the side of the boat because it was easier than reforming the whole stay after the pin, and two stays that run one down each side of the boat between the other cross stays creating a rigid system to mount to. The saddle is then simply screwed to this. All the aluminum stays are screwed together using 1/4" or 3/8" machine screws going through a hole in one stay into a tapped-hole (tap kit $16 at Big Lots - cheap but effective) in the second stay. You could similarly tap the stays at the points they mount to the hull, but I went for a bolts here as I figured these would be the points of greatest strain and aluminum threads can be stripped fairly easily. The Aluminum is 1/16" sheet that I got cut into 2" wide strips at a local fabricator.
I originally went for this system to avoid having to drill holes in the hull as I wanted to be able to convert back to a kayak if I decided to sell the boat. However, in doing the job I ended up cutting the thigh brace mounts off the cockpit rim, so there's no going back now. It was kind of a pain forming the aluminum straps that go across the hull as they have to fit fairly closely. I did this by securing them in a vice right beside where I wanted the bend and bending them by hand. Worked pretty well, but it was a very iterative process to get the fit right.
I'll try to get those pics taken this weekend and post them then - doubt I'll have time before then sorry.
Matt
MShelton - yes, the thigh and knee straps are on a "single" piece of webbing. I'll try to take some more photos to show this more clearly. I say "single" because there is actually two pieces - one either side of the buckle. The piece running from the buckle to the center goes through a slot in the saddle (it's an old gyromax saddle) then back over my knee to the front side anchor (a slot I cut in the plastic base plate of the saddle). This is the one that gets cranked down for paddling. The one running from the buckle to the outside of the boat goes straight to the rear side anchor (two holes melted in the webbing and locked into place with bolts through the old kayak seat holes - these bolts also hold the hip pads in place). It's the same concept as in the Mike Yee system (which I put in the tandem OC I just outfitted).
The way the center anchor is placed in this setup, I've got it slightly further forward than I would for a single thigh strap and slightly further back than for a single knee strap. The outer anchors are in about the same places as they would "normally" be (I think from my very limited experience). Because my C1 saddle is lower than in the picture of a similar system in Bob's OC1, the front anchor is further forwrad and the strap goes diagonally back across my knee to the center anchor. This is kind of hard to describe, but I'll try to take a picture and post that. I've found it to be very secure and you can really tighten the straps down.
PAC - If you've got any "kayak" floatation bags around, they'd be great in the bow of your micro, especially the ones designed for old long boats. I use "kayak" stern playboat flotation in the bow of the Special. Fits perfectly for that volume. In the back I use an old set of "bow bags" designed for old long boats to go in front of the kayakers foot pegs. These also fit pretty well. A lot of people seem to forgo flotation these days, but I don't think (from recent personal experiences) that that's a good idea - especially in a creeker.
As to creating a single point for failure - I hadn't thought about that. I haven't had them fail yet. My biggest concerns for failure would be the straps working their way through the tri-glides holding them in place or the webbing pulling off the hip pad bolts on the rear side anchor. For the later case I've actually melted an extra set of holes in the webbing so I can do a field-repair if necessary, but so far I haven't noticed any tendency to tear (after maybe a dozen days paddling).
I have my knee strap side anchors pretty low to give the strap a better grip on my knee and I think roughly equal to wear the front of my knee is. Again, I'll try to take a pic where I'm actually in the boat. I may be misremembering exactly where things are (I've been playing with a lto of different boats and outftting project recently). I'd try to maximmise contact between my leg and the strap.
As to alumnium stays - that's what my entire saddle is mounted to - a stay bent to fit the hull that goes from side to side at the front using the old kayak thigh-brace holes, another stay whcih was originally mounted to the old seat bolt holes, but now I've actually drilled holes in the side of the boat because it was easier than reforming the whole stay after the pin, and two stays that run one down each side of the boat between the other cross stays creating a rigid system to mount to. The saddle is then simply screwed to this. All the aluminum stays are screwed together using 1/4" or 3/8" machine screws going through a hole in one stay into a tapped-hole (tap kit $16 at Big Lots - cheap but effective) in the second stay. You could similarly tap the stays at the points they mount to the hull, but I went for a bolts here as I figured these would be the points of greatest strain and aluminum threads can be stripped fairly easily. The Aluminum is 1/16" sheet that I got cut into 2" wide strips at a local fabricator.
I originally went for this system to avoid having to drill holes in the hull as I wanted to be able to convert back to a kayak if I decided to sell the boat. However, in doing the job I ended up cutting the thigh brace mounts off the cockpit rim, so there's no going back now. It was kind of a pain forming the aluminum straps that go across the hull as they have to fit fairly closely. I did this by securing them in a vice right beside where I wanted the bend and bending them by hand. Worked pretty well, but it was a very iterative process to get the fit right.
I'll try to get those pics taken this weekend and post them then - doubt I'll have time before then sorry.
Matt
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
-
NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
knee strap positioning
Apologies - I went and checked the C1 over the weekend and discovered that my front-side knee strap anchor is indeed well behind the knee, similar to how it's pictured for Bob. My inner anchor is perhaps slightly further forward and if anything my front-side anchor is further back.
Sorry for my confusion - too many boats in one small brain
Matt
Sorry for my confusion - too many boats in one small brain
Matt
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Thanks for the info all. After looking at it further and after some goo tips from Kneal (thanks for the guidence and help). It looks like the best thing to do is add some minicell padding down from the deck to wedge my knees in. There's really no where to anchor the kneestraps on the side of the hull. Pics to follow soon.