Does anyone here use a C-1 back deck roll?

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:47 pm

I just got a back deck roll figured out on the lake-- sort of a conversion of a kayak "rodeo roll"...
I haven't seen much discussion or ANY videos or tutorials on how to do a C-1 rodeo roll, but just sort of converting the kayak technique was easy enough.
Is this the only C-1 roll that really maintains all your momentum? The offside roll (which I only get maybe 10% of the time in the Atom, it's just not practical) sort of does... but it just keeps your momentum if you're going over to the onside. You're normally going over towards your offside, and the only roll people usually talk about for that is the low brace roll, and that means you need to stop, set up and keep going which at best is a little bit of a delay... the rodeo type roll, if you're going towards the offside, just requires throwing your body weight and coming over and forwards. It's one motion. Even throwing your weight at the offside before a low brace roll (which I've seen people say is a good way to help out the roll and get into position for it if you know you're going to flip to the offside) isn't going to speed it up all that much.
Obviously the back deck roll exposes your face a lot more to rocks, though. Any thoughts on it?

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:27 pm

I occasionally do, but usually only if I am pushed towards the back deck by underwater currents when I flip.

For the most part I have stopped defining which roll I execute, and just do whatever works. Often they are combinations of different rolls depending on my position when I flip and what works quickest. The only time I consciously make the effort to do a specific roll is when I am trying an offside.

Nate

Mikey B · Post by **Mikey B** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:54 pm

Why do you need to stop and set up for the low brace roll? You can do it in a quick continuous motion. Just speed up the process. Although sometimes its best to hang out tucked up until you're in a better spot for a roll.
The back deck roll is fast though.

B-rad · Post by **B-rad** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:56 pm

The back deck is almost the only roll I use, mainly because it's so fast. The main concern is of course the face exposure, but I've found that I can actually roll in shallower water without making contact. When I do encounter some friendly rocks, I've always taken them off the arms or the chest - whether that's due to body positioning or just pure luck is hard to say.
I'm a big fan, and though I'm sure others would disagree, I'd have a tough time switching back.

Post by **sbroam** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:24 am

My low brace roll is usually a continuous motion and I do carry a lot of momentum into it - when I flip it is usually to my offside so I typically throw myself that way when it's apparent I'm going over.

I've never really worked on a back deck roll but could see how the C-boater version of it might protect the face more than the k-boat version (the paddle shaft in front of the face).

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:11 am

I'll have to work on my low brace roll some... when I try to carry momentum I feel like I sweep out too early some of the time. So, the paddle is parallel to the boat on the left side (I paddle on my right side). To roll I want it sticking out to the left. However, if I'm not entirely upside down yet and I bring the paddle perpendicular, it'll be in the same position as normal but instead of sticking out across the water it'll be sticking straight down since the boat isn't upside down all the way yet.
This stops the all momentum almost completely. Plus, if I do this setup way too much early, my paddle ends up too low in the water when I begin the roll motion, and the roll fails.
Otherwise, I sweep out when I'm almost (or I already am) a full 180 degrees upside down, and the paddle doesn't get hung up in the water. This is pretty much the only way I could see keeping any momentum. But, all the time I spend waiting for my paddle to be clear of the water so I can sweep it out to roll, the boat loses momentum. Wait too long to get set up solidly on top of the water, and you might as well be rolling from a dead stop upside down...
I guess there's a sweet spot somewhere when you don't stop your movement with the paddle under the boat, but also don't lose the momentum by waiting too long-- but I certainly can't find it reliably. In whitewater I often find myself wanting to get back up REALLY fast in a moment of panic (or cold water) and I start to get in position and roll before I'm even quite upside down yet... This obviously only pulls me the rest of the way over, and doesn't end with me anywhere close to rightside up.
On a side note, another habit I'm trying to get into is immediately attempting an offside roll if I miss an onside one... the onside leaves me more or less in position for the offside roll and if nothing else, this feels like the quickest way to get back into the onside roll setup. It might also work once in a blue moon, certainly in the Gyramax this would be an effective technique (not sure I'd ever miss enough onside rolls the in the Gyramax for this to matter, though)

NZ C1er · Post by **NZ C1er** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:49 pm

Sometimes with a momentum roll there is no too soon and the sweep out is done somewhere underneath as with the hip flick, such as it is, without stopping the momentum, its a body torsion thing, there is no push down on the back of the blade to lever myself up, instead its a forward slice or (in extreme fast lip of the falls type situations) a power stroke that I come up on. I think a short paddle makes for fast rolling relying on tecnique rather than leverage. As an exercise I like to practice rolling with the paddle turned so the blade is in my hand and the T grip is where the blade should be, I find this focuses me on body torsion and coming up low wraped arround the boat, and,,, gets all the junk out of the front pocket of my boyancy jacket, this exercise translates well into a river situation.
As for back deck rolling I play with it and may have done it a couple of times whilst playing, its a subconsious thing.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:20 pm

If I can carry over the momentum, I do a high-brace roll that usually works well and puts very little pressure on the paddle. If that fails though, I switch to low-brace since it's easier on shaft-shoulder and more reliable.

Nate

Post by **sbroam** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:12 pm

When I'm flipping to my offside, I more or less assume the tuck position before I'm even over - I "throw" myself into it, I'm driving my head to the offside deck and punching down (to the side of the boat) with the paddle. As the boat comes around to upside down, I'm already starting my sweep out - no pause - with the blade twisted so that it is climbing as I sweep. [My t-grip thumb is twisted away so the leading edge of the blade is angled to the surface somewhat.] This brings me to the surface quickly and can start to right the boat. When I am about 90 degrees (or a little more) out, I start the low brace roll proper and twist the blade so the leading edge (now the opposite) is again climbing as I sweep forward. Note that I do not pause or wait for the boat to settle, I don't check to see if I am at the surface before starting the roll - I just go. Sweeping forward I keep my head low and push the paddle out in front, usually going straight into a foward stroke (which aids in stability).

This used to be my "oh-cr@p-I-know-what-is-down-stream" or my playboating, "I'm flipping over from another stern squirt attempt maybe I can make this look like a screw up (the good kind)" roll. Now it is my normal roll. It's a lot easier to roll fast like this in a C-1 than an OC-1, but I've been known to pull it off in an OC-1, too. Like between the two drops of Pinball on the Upper Green in my SF...

See if this helps - of the handful of crummy videos we shot of me rolling, this is the best to demonstrate the conservation of momentum. Watch the whole thing - there are a couple of stern squirts first.

http://picasaweb.google.com/scott.broam ... 7160226706

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:00 pm

I guess my main issue is with the angle of the blade as I sweep out-- with it almost flat it isn't climbing and would prevent the continuing motion some too.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:05 pm

I use it all the time, almost whenever I capsize to the offside in fact, my main motivation is that it's wicked fast* and doesn't make the boat spin around much on the surface. I've been particularly enamoured with it ever since I worked out how to use it in my oc1's too.

*I recently beat a load of buttboaters in a rolling race (avg 21 secs to do ten rolls to their communal best of 27 secs) mucho pride over that.

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:08 am

Got video? I'd like to see some nice back-deck OC1 rolls. It'd give me a good goal for the winter.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:13 am

Not got any of me, but Chris has this one.
Clicky

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:36 am

Thanks. I like this one even better http://s210.photobucket.com/albums/bb53 ... ropool.flv
Good collection of videos.

gumpy · Post by **gumpy** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:51 pm

how far out/back should i reach with the paddle? control hand in the gut/shaft hand on the forehead like a low brace roll? is shoulder injury a concern with poor form?