Question for the expert OC boater

[Paolo]

I'm a confident C1 paddler, I'm at home in class IV and had run several class V in C1.
From two years ago I'm paddling OC1 also, I had a spanish fly before and got a prelude now.
I like the boat and the feeling. I had run some alpine class IV, IV+ without too many problems; can roll the boat, support brace, boof holes ecc...
The problem is: when I'm in long continuous rapid and the boat come to be full of water it makes really difficult to catch eddys...
Alpine rivers are often very fast and continuous with shallow water and micro eddys, in this conditions, if the boat is full, it can be very difficult to stop enough fast wen I need it.
Have you some tricks about this??

[the great gonzo]

Paolo, although I don't really consider myself a expert boater, intermediate to advanced (class IV is enough for me at this time) is probably more adequate, but I still have some suggestions.
you can add some foam to the sides to displace some water (check out Craig Smerdas site on open boat outfitting:
http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!05!AB! ... Infitting/ )

The best modification to get for your boat to keep water out (or better get it out) when running long continuous rapids is in my opinion an electric bailing pump.
The system in my Prelude consists right now of a 500 gph (~1800 lph) water proof bilge pump inititially designed for power boats. I found its flow however to be on the low side and will replace it during this winter with a 1250 gph (~4800 lph) pump.
I use a 12V power tool battery in a water proof case with a water proof switch. I also use a float switch, which means that you can switch the pump on before entering the rapidsand it ewill only start to pump once you ghave an inch (2-3 cm) or so of water in the boat.
A battery charge usually lasts me for a full weekend.
If you have any questions, e-mail me and I give you more details.

martin

[NZMatt]

Hi Martin

I've been curious about those systems for some time now....how much did it cost you to put this together? Be very interested in more details, if you could, about how you mounted it and such.

Cheers

Matt

[the great gonzo]

Hi Matt,

The cost is not excessive, a submesrible bilge pump with a capacity of 1250 gph (Attwood V1250) costs Can$46 at Canadian Tire, so you should be able to find one in the US for roughly US$30.

http://bilge-pumps.net/attwood/

I use the batteries (make sure they are 12 V, otherwise you will either get very poor pumping performance or runthe risk of frying the motor) of my cordless drill. One charge lasts me for a full weekend, but I always carry my 2nd battery as a spare.
You will also need a water proof case, cost about Can$20, and a switch; I waterproofed my switch (Can$5) myself by installing a rubber cap on the toggle and then encasing it in epoxy.
As option you can also install a float switch (Can$30), this allows you to just forget about the pump at all while running the rapids, it will switch on automatically whenever there is mot than about an inch of water in the boat. The only drawback is that whenever your boat is upside down, the pump starts running and draining the battery without pumping. This has not been a problem for me so far.
Lot's of people don't like the float switches, but I think if you go for a pump, you may as wellgo all the way .
as far as istallation goes, the pump in my boat (Prelude) sits behind the saddle sandwiched in by the airbag and held in by some double sided tape I never take it out, even for transport. It has not come out so far. Others make them removable by stampping them down. The Battery case is attached with velcro and sandwiched between the saddle/bulkhead and the front airbag. The swich is simply tie wrapped to the front thwart.
As wiring connectors I used water proof connectors for trailer wiring.
The wiring is held in by the handiman's secret weapon, duct tape.
If you want more info, let me know, I can take some pictures and e-mail them to you.


martin

[Sir Adam]

OK Martin. Now you're REALLY in trouble. We all now know you watch Red Green.

To at least be on-topic, you may want to check out "liquid electrical tape" (you should be able to find it at any marine supply store or marina)-you paint it on, and it dries to a hard rubberry compound. It's great for REALLY waterproofing connections, etc..., and comes in several colors (I keep Black and Red on hand) (though I have yet to see it in Green ).

Keep yer stick on the ice,
"Sir" Adam

[TommyC1]

Well I'm hardly an expert but...
There are two things I've been taught to keep my open boat dry. The first is blocking, leaning the boat to block a wave that would otherwise fill you up.
The second and IMO much more difficult is reading the water and putting your boat where it will take on the least water. I've paddled with guys who do that pretty well and it's quite an art, something that separates the expert open boater from the rest of us.
Me, I pump a lot, by hand.

Tommy

[Longboatin']

BILGE PUMP!! How'z about just learning to run things dry, utilizing leans and such. Jeez, what's next - a blue tablet to drop in the bottom of your boat so it smells nice?

[NZMatt]

Now, now, don't get your stockings knotted I think there are definitely some things that bilge pumps are great for - I'd love to have one when playboating - especially when playing in holes. Anything to save having to actually get out of my boat and empty after every second ride, while watching the decked boaters take 5 rides in the process (and yes I paddle decked boats too, so it's not envy - I just like trying to do the same stuff in an OC ).

I also think that for long continously technical runs, they might be very useful....there's only so much you can do to stay dry if you're forced to punch hole after hole because that is the nature of the river. And then you have to catch a micro-eddy to empty? ...ugly! (but heinously fun!)....that sort of run was what it sounds like Paolo was talking about. Yeah, we could always paddle a decked boats, but I just love the feel of boulder dodging in the OC.

For general river running and such, I agree that learning how to keep the boat dry is the best method We're not all there yet though

[the great gonzo]

But OF COURSE I am watching Red Green, I am Canadian , EH! It's mandatory up here.
Good tip about that liquid electrical tape, got to find me some of this. I just sealed everything using silicone.
I agree that leaning and waveblocking are great techniquesto keep your boat dry, I also try to use them myself , but I just happened to learn the hard way that they do not work that well if you try to wave block going over a steep 8or 9ft wave that is breaking ...and the thing is riverwide, so there is no way around it...
The pumps are also really cool for playing in holes, once you get flushed after skillfully playing in it or roll back up after having recieved a sound thrashing it is nice to just paddle back into the lineup in the eddy and let the pump do it's job while all the other open boaters paddle to shore to empty their boats....


martin

[ohc1]

Hey Martin-

What do you suppose your whole pump system weighs?

I paddle a Mohawk Rodeo, and I've glued in extra foam in just about every space possible. I also use a hand bilge pump (Harmony?) on bigger rivers, though I've had a hard time getting it positioned at an angle that's (1) comfortable to operate, and (2) won't get in my way. I also need to figure out a way to keep the pump handle locked down when I'm not using it (It's no fun when the handle pops up and gets in the way of your roll...*gulp*)

-Kevin

[Paolo]

Thanks to everybody.
Me too I would prefere learn to run staying dry, and I try to do this, but as Matt say probably there's not the way to stay dry in some kind of river.
Also it's not a big matter to me to stop and empty the boat, if i find the place to do this.... but sometimes and somewhere isn't easy.
So maybe I will consider to put a pump in.

[Martyn]

Paolo,

Martin has a pretty slick system. I don't think I would put a pump in a solo boat as I don't paddle enough continuous creeks like I suspect you do. Guys in Quebec who paddle big rivers seem to like the pumps as well.

I guess there will be purists out there who don't like pumps, but they certainly serve a purpose.

I do like the idea of a pump for my tandem boat as it means I can drain it in the eddies in cold spring runs without too much dicking around.

Martyn

[David Nickerson]

Battery weighs about 2.5 pounds, pump at about a pound, another .5lbs? between the hose and clamps, and outflow port?

I've used their original system for the last 2 years, and been thrilled with it.

The new system uses a better battery, remote switch (was previously battery-mounted).

Is a super-effective system, took 10 or so minutes off my Upper Gauley race time.

Retails at $146 on the new Esquif Pricelist.

Any questions, I'm at EsquifUSA@aol.com

David Nickerson
US Sales
Esquif

[Cone Bone]

Has anybody used a large manual bilge pump to clear water from their open canoe?

I have used the Whale Gusher pump on small sailboats, and found them to be pretty much bombproof. Check out the WHALE GUSHER TITAN at the bottom of this webpage:

http://ca.binnacle.com/online/dept.asp?dept_id=2090

This may be just a complicated substitute for a bucket bailer in a canoe, but it might be worth a try. I could imagine getting several strokes in on the handle of a pump like this, even if I was running between rapids with no eddy in sight. The one shown above takes about three strokes to pump a gallon. The stroke on the handle is only about 10", so the pumping goes pretty fast. This one is kind of huge for a canoe, but I think there are smaller ones available.

[the great gonzo]

This manual bilge pump does work, however this begs the question why would anyone go for such a manual pump that is not all that cheap (can$150.00), if you can get a basic electric setup for less and a fully automatic setup for about the same money?
The big advantage of the automatic setup is that you can, once you are on the river and switched it on, completely forget it, as it will start to bail as soon as it is necessary and stop once the water is out without any further intervention.
Just my 2 cents.

martin