I'm trying to get comfortable playing in bigger holes and, of course, this involves plenty of flipping and rolling. I have no problem rolling when I flip from an onside sidesurf - the river does the work. Flipping from an offside sidesurf usually results in being flushed downstream and then rolling: fine. Does anyone have any experience with rolling in bigger, retentive holes after flipping from an offside sidesurf? Is it impossible to come up against the current when you flip from an offside sidesurf and get retained? I don't have an offside roll yet. Is that really needed in this situation?
Along the same lines, I've flipped and have been momentarily pinned upside down against rocks twice in the past year. Both times I bailed rather than waiting to find out what would happen if I tried to roll. Is there a better thing to do?
hole rolls and upside down pins
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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aldenb
boatin
fortunately with these new short boats . . .
if you flip in a hole on your offside, you can often wrench your boat around so that you are back on your onside. it's hard to explain, but this is what all the top playboaters seem to do. there's an LVM video showing Eric Jackson in a c-1 doing this.
you can try this in the pool or flatwater. get almost all the way up on your offside, just by floating in roll position, as though you were going to do an offside roll. instead, reach around to your stern and try to pull yourself toward the stern. this will spin the boat around. and in these short boats, you can do that in many holes and wind up on your onside, so you can roll.
later
Alden
if you flip in a hole on your offside, you can often wrench your boat around so that you are back on your onside. it's hard to explain, but this is what all the top playboaters seem to do. there's an LVM video showing Eric Jackson in a c-1 doing this.
you can try this in the pool or flatwater. get almost all the way up on your offside, just by floating in roll position, as though you were going to do an offside roll. instead, reach around to your stern and try to pull yourself toward the stern. this will spin the boat around. and in these short boats, you can do that in many holes and wind up on your onside, so you can roll.
later
Alden
Video
Alden,
Any chance of getting that on a video clip, in a pool or in flatwater?
Any chance of getting that on a video clip, in a pool or in flatwater?
Cone Bone
randy@artisansgroup.com
randy@artisansgroup.com
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unicorn-in-captivity
Underwater pin
Here's my take, for what it's worth...
I went through the "I''m never coming out of my boat no matter " phase & I got over it.
I've wiggled my boat off rocks in dicey places, like everybody else. But there's a time to wale & a time to bail. Especally under water, or in a situation where you soon could be.
Years ago I had an underwater pin on the Gauley. Had started setting my roll even as I saw I was toast & never imagined being pinned. Instead of rolling the boat up, I dislocated my shoulder in place. Bad day. Not fun kicking out & swimming, either.
Some years later I found myself slammed upside down tight against the upstream side of a rock (stupid move--) and I wasn't coming loose. I knew this rapid by heart, and I knew that there was no way anyone was going to get anywhere near me, and cautiously feeling around told me that I had just clearance to kick out -- & I bailed: fast. To hades with waiting! I got a) body surfed at the bottom b) hooted at, because of course with no weight in it my boat popped up immediately ("whatcha do THAT for"). But over the years I have know of too many pins where folks didn't get out; or they got out only because they could get above water long enough for someone to get a rope on them, or they didn't get out because in the beginning they could have but they stayed in trying to wiggle off until instead they wiggled under.
In this sport we make our own decisions, and maybe I'm just getting too old, but they say there are no old, bold pilots. If I make the wrong guess, I'd rather have it be the guess that leaves me laughed at than dead. The other thing is, I'd recommend being really really careful about contortions with your paddle on solid ground or banging rocks: good prescription for dislocation or rotator cuff tears.
Just my 2c, and if anyone has alternative strategies, pitch in...
Old-school Chick(en)
I went through the "I''m never coming out of my boat no matter " phase & I got over it.
I've wiggled my boat off rocks in dicey places, like everybody else. But there's a time to wale & a time to bail. Especally under water, or in a situation where you soon could be.
Years ago I had an underwater pin on the Gauley. Had started setting my roll even as I saw I was toast & never imagined being pinned. Instead of rolling the boat up, I dislocated my shoulder in place. Bad day. Not fun kicking out & swimming, either.
Some years later I found myself slammed upside down tight against the upstream side of a rock (stupid move--) and I wasn't coming loose. I knew this rapid by heart, and I knew that there was no way anyone was going to get anywhere near me, and cautiously feeling around told me that I had just clearance to kick out -- & I bailed: fast. To hades with waiting! I got a) body surfed at the bottom b) hooted at, because of course with no weight in it my boat popped up immediately ("whatcha do THAT for"). But over the years I have know of too many pins where folks didn't get out; or they got out only because they could get above water long enough for someone to get a rope on them, or they didn't get out because in the beginning they could have but they stayed in trying to wiggle off until instead they wiggled under.
In this sport we make our own decisions, and maybe I'm just getting too old, but they say there are no old, bold pilots. If I make the wrong guess, I'd rather have it be the guess that leaves me laughed at than dead. The other thing is, I'd recommend being really really careful about contortions with your paddle on solid ground or banging rocks: good prescription for dislocation or rotator cuff tears.
Just my 2c, and if anyone has alternative strategies, pitch in...
Old-school Chick(en)
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aldenb
boatin
randy,
you probably dont need to watch, it's pretty simple idea really.
the object is to spin the boat 180 degrees. that way instead of surfing on your offside, you are on your onside, so that you can roll.
you do this all the time in a playhole, right? you just spin around so that you're surfing on the other side. the only difference is that now you have to do it while upside down.
a normal backsweep will spin your boat around, right? but this time you have to do a back-sweep on the offside.
a back sweep on the onside is easy. you just reach back to the stern and sweep your paddle towards the bow. now try it on the cross bow side. but instead of using the non-power face like a normal back sweep, use the power face.
now flip over and try it upside down. just float up to the surface on your offside, as though you're stuck in a hole on your offside. then reach back to the stern and do your best to wrench the boat 180 degrees.
later
Alden
you probably dont need to watch, it's pretty simple idea really.
the object is to spin the boat 180 degrees. that way instead of surfing on your offside, you are on your onside, so that you can roll.
you do this all the time in a playhole, right? you just spin around so that you're surfing on the other side. the only difference is that now you have to do it while upside down.
a normal backsweep will spin your boat around, right? but this time you have to do a back-sweep on the offside.
a back sweep on the onside is easy. you just reach back to the stern and sweep your paddle towards the bow. now try it on the cross bow side. but instead of using the non-power face like a normal back sweep, use the power face.
now flip over and try it upside down. just float up to the surface on your offside, as though you're stuck in a hole on your offside. then reach back to the stern and do your best to wrench the boat 180 degrees.
later
Alden
I'll try that
Alden, thanks for the detail. I have the idea now, and will give it a go.
My experience in nasty holes is very limited. I paddle class II & III, and pass on the hairy stuff for now. I am also a novice at surfing.
I do have a sturdy off-side roll, when I switch hands. I have rolled offside without switching hands, but the finish always seems sketchy and sloppy. That's why I am keen on the idea of turning the boat and setting up for the onside roll.
My experience in nasty holes is very limited. I paddle class II & III, and pass on the hairy stuff for now. I am also a novice at surfing.
I do have a sturdy off-side roll, when I switch hands. I have rolled offside without switching hands, but the finish always seems sketchy and sloppy. That's why I am keen on the idea of turning the boat and setting up for the onside roll.
Last edited by Cone Bone on Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cone Bone
randy@artisansgroup.com
randy@artisansgroup.com
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jKelly-Rand
Mark,
I've tried and been successful a couple of times with the technique that Alden suggests. In fact I think I used it at New Boston at the end where we played below the bridge. It does depend on what the hole will let you do. I flipped on the Quaboag a couple weeks age and was held for 20 Sec. and was not able to get around until my skirt popped.
til next
Jim
I've tried and been successful a couple of times with the technique that Alden suggests. In fact I think I used it at New Boston at the end where we played below the bridge. It does depend on what the hole will let you do. I flipped on the Quaboag a couple weeks age and was held for 20 Sec. and was not able to get around until my skirt popped.
til next
Jim