Sub (less than) 10ft. "TRADITIONAL" OC ???'s

Post by **sbroam** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:16 pm

ezwater wrote: Can ANY sub 10 foot OC-1 be "traditional"? Aren't they more like human-powered Foamies?

Tried one yet? And by that I mean spend a couple of days in one? Remember, I'm no lightweight (north of 200) and I *do* appreciate and paddle long boats - I'm no rodeo hotdog or steep creeking wild man . If we took an average of the length of the boats in the family fleet, we'd be closer to 13' than 10'. And yet, my Spanish Fly is my favorite whitewater boat...

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:32 pm

Impressions on the boats I have experience with:

Dagger Ovation - Buy an Ocoee instead. Much better boat. Unless you're a beginner or like a boat that is really forgiving.

Dagger Phantom - My favorite ride until I bought an Esquif Prelude. Plenty of edge to carve and eddy well, but not as grabby as the Ocoee. Great surf boat. Plenty stable if you're not over 200 pounds and you can set seat height at 8" or less.

Esquif/Pyranha Prelude - Instantly bonded with this boat. It does everything well and is kayak-tough. I'm surprised at how well it eddies because the chines don't seem that sharp. The boat is so responsive it seems to follow your nose. I'm also impressed with it's speed for its size. I sold three Phantoms after buying this boat (kept one for old times sake).

Esquif Zoom - I've paddled two of them and they each were very different. They were different generations--one was the 5th or so made and the other was a newer one. I liked the newer one, but not as much as the Prelude, or the Phantom for that matter.

Evergreen Solito - A good boat for Ocoee lovers that want to get into something smaller. Very sharp chines, very flat bottom, lots of rocker. Carves great. Tricky to surf because of the edges and short length. Watch your edges sidesurfing in a hole.

Mohawk Maxim - I'm very curious about this one now that it's coming out in PE. But I'm also curious about the L'Edge. Seems like it's a great time to be an open boater.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:26 pm

At 220 lbs, I haven't liked any of these boats enough to spend real time in them. Some of that may have been the hulls, some of it may have been outfitting that didn't fit me.

All of them felt slow and wet. And the Zoom was too bracey, as was the Solito when full of water. At least the Det felt like it kind of carries me and could be kept somewhat dry, but I hate the way the double-chines wear.

And 220 is not that heavy!! I'm not a huge guy. I wish were there more sub-12' fun boats to choose from for 200lbs+ paddlers, which seems like a big enough market.

Pat.

jnorto01 · Post by **jnorto01** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:49 pm

Detonator - YUK - no redeming qualities whatsoever.

Maxim - super slow

Prelude - slow and doesn't track at all which contributes to the slow.(I might be able to like this boat if I spent enough time in it, but I like hard chines so maybe not)

Zoom - THIS BOAT ROCKS!!!!!!!
I don't understand why people have such a problem with this boat. (I'll admit this boat kicked my keister the first time I paddled it but I grew into it) It is really fast for its lenght. Carves into eddies like it is on rails. It is fast to transition edge to edge (which I guess some say is twitchy) but the secondary stability is rock solid to the point of having a gunwale in the water. It rolls easy but it can get stuck on the offside needing a sweep or a fiddle stroke to pull it over to the onside to roll. This boat is a surfing machine. It stays relatively loose, carves well, front surfs, side surfs and back surfs with ease.
BTW my saddle hieght in the Zoom is 8in - pretty standard for OC-1.

My Zoom is about worn out and I WILL buy another one. A poly version would definitely perc my interest.

D-Caption · Post by **D-Caption** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:45 am

I can/t comment on any of these short boats other than the Spanish Fly and Ocoee. Absolutely love the Ocoee and could learn to love the Fly with time in it. Lookinf forward to trying the Ledge and maybe the Maxim in PE. D-Caption

P-LX · Post by **P-LX** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:22 am

Hi everyone,

I'm new on C-forum and I decided to register juste because I want to vote for the Zoom!!! I am very surprised to see that good boaters like you don't appreciate it, but I think it depends of the type of rivers we paddled. I'm from Quebec and here we got bigger river and I think this boat is more addapted for them than for creeking because of its stability and material(hope a PE version will coming soon...keep hope). I really like its acceleration and the way you can carve and change from edge to edge in a seconds to stop during a ferry on a wave. I am very excited about try le nouveau L'edge( paddled it 2 minutes on Upper gatineau and like it for what I saw).

P-L X

Longboatin · Post by **Longboatin** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:23 am

Ive noticed two terms or concepts, bandied around the forum here lately that Im not sure i understand
1. edge to edge transition - like this has something to do w/ hull design, besides maybe width?

2. Whether a boat has "sharp" chines. - eg. milkman's suprise that the prelude eddy turns well even with its lack of sharp shines. Are we just going by appearances here? Because I'd have to suggest that even the roundest hull has edges.

jrsh92 · Post by **jrsh92** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:30 am

Longboatin wrote:Ive noticed two terms or concepts, bandied around the forum here lately that Im not sure i understand
1. edge to edge transition - like this has something to do w/ hull design, besides maybe width?

I think this is a matter of primary stability-- or lack of it. Also I guess that a boat could hang on one edge, almost like it has some "stability" to stay where it is while it's leaned over... either way, it's definitely a question of hull design

2. Whether a boat has "sharp" chines. - eg. milkman's suprise that the prelude eddy turns well even with its lack of sharp shines. Are we just going by appearances here? Because I'd have to suggest that even the roundest hull has edges.

Even the roundest hull has some sort of edge maybe, but the roundest hull might not turn very well. The chines do matter, and some of their effect could be guessed by appearance. As you're pointing out, though, clearly not all of it can.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:34 pm

Longboatin wrote:Ive noticed two terms or concepts, bandied around the forum here lately that Im not sure i understand
1. edge to edge transition - like this has something to do w/ hull design, besides maybe width?

2. Whether a boat has "sharp" chines. - eg. milkman's suprise that the prelude eddy turns well even with its lack of sharp shines. Are we just going by appearances here? Because I'd have to suggest that even the roundest hull has edges.

.... now that's something Im not sure i understand. if it doesn't have an edge, how can it have one???? ....like if it's round.... it's round.... does a circle have and edge? certainly - you can turn one - even well, but it wouldn't be because it has a and edge....

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:53 pm

P-LX wrote:Hi everyone,

I'm new on C-forum and I decided to register juste because I want to vote for the Zoom!!! I am very surprised to see that good boaters like you don't appreciate it, but I think it depends of the type of rivers we paddled. I'm from Quebec and here we got bigger river and I think this boat is more addapted for them than for creeking because of its stability and material(hope a PE version will coming soon...keep hope). I really like its acceleration and the way you can carve and change from edge to edge in a seconds to stop during a ferry on a wave. I am very excited about try le nouveau L'edge( paddled it 2 minutes on Upper gatineau and like it for what I saw).

P-L X

That's exactly why I wouldn't vote for a Zoom, I like to paddle all types of water....

... and definitely don't want my boat to be the limiting factor - on the fun I intend to have. For instance, I've taken this one Canadian woman out of her (z)DOOM - that couldn't get a flat spin down after a couple hours of working, and then she immediately started linking 360's in a Fly (first time-in mere seconds). Sorry - but different strokes for different folks.

I've also bit my tongue before at this Canadian mumbo-jumbo - but really don't understand this I'm from Canada, so I paddle bigger water than you mentality... I might as well say I'm from the southeast and know mo' bout running steep creeks, ...that would be just as erroneous. Yes - Canada has large volume water, but it doesn't have any exclusive hold on the stuff... It's everywhere! I'm sure I could tell you how to paddle some of that big water better (for starters - get a new boat)...Just as I'm sure someone from Canada, could tell me how to better paddle something steep!

I'm just saying Canadian and US boaters are basically the same, and one's not better than the other in big water - nor steep. However - granted there does appear to be way more Open Boaters up yonder. It's just about time to put aside this ill-perceived notion about BIG WATER, and talk about boats... not oh - we do this better... no we do... (crap). I bad mouth the Zoom, out of personal preference - and not the canoeist in boat, nor the man making them.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:45 pm

philcanoe wrote:
Longboatin wrote:Ive noticed two terms or concepts, bandied around the forum here lately that Im not sure i understand
1. edge to edge transition - like this has something to do w/ hull design, besides maybe width?

2. Whether a boat has "sharp" chines. - eg. milkman's suprise that the prelude eddy turns well even with its lack of sharp shines. Are we just going by appearances here? Because I'd have to suggest that even the roundest hull has edges.

.... now that's something Im not sure i understand. if it doesn't have an edge, how can it have one???? ....like if it's round.... it's round.... does a circle have and edge? certainly - you can turn one - even well, but it wouldn't be because it has a and edge....

One of the boats listed in the poll was said to have "ghost chines"

Kelvin · Post by **Kelvin** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:53 pm

Here we go....

ZOOM, no hull I have paddled gets near it!

Precise edging
Fast
Holds its line well
Carves like a dream
Rolls easy
Dry

I'm 5'8'' 158lb 8'' saddle height

Downside? If I get another one it will be purple!

Kelvin.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:56 pm

... as in 'Ghostbusters'

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:59 pm

Sounds like Penis Envy to me Kev... I want all of'em I can get.

Post by **sbroam** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:08 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:
One of the boats listed in the poll was said to have "ghost chines"

I think I was remembering that from the old Dagger catalog - I think it was their marketing mumbo jumbo for "there is a little bit of a crease that is part way up the side that will grab the water if you lean the boat over enough".

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Sub (less than) 10ft. "TRADITIONAL" OC ???'s

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