Sub (less than) 10ft. "TRADITIONAL" OC ???'s

[wetnobby]

That'll be the Quake if remember correctly then Scott...

My favorite is also the Zoom....
Mines pretty soft on the back rails now though......

But i like lots of boats.....!!!
Mostly they are all great fun, some do things a bit different to others, some work better on different types of river etc...but the bottom line is you can have a great day out in most if not all of them...especially if the outfitting works for you!!

I'm sure that someone said on this forum its surprising what you can get used to.....given time.

Chris

[Toolboxafloat]

The only comparison I have to my Phantom is a Robson Holmes and the Ocoee. Both are faster, no question. I had the impression that my Phantom is dryer. Well anyway, I gave the Phantom a vote as I am quite content with that boat.

Just some weeks ago a Prelude happened to find its way inot our Boathouse - its still one of those produced by Pyranha. I was told that these older ones are more twitchy than the one by Esquif - can that be true?

Axel

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ipxCUo6MRZ4/S ... Serie1.JPG[/img]

[the great gonzo]

as far as the Zoom debate is concerned, one key factor there is paddler weight.
People who love it seem to weigh up to ~150-160 lbs. For anyone heavier many of the attributes touted by the lighter crowd are not there any more. At my 185 lbs I found for instance the difference in speed between the Zoom and the Prelude to be virtually non-existant.

As far as the turning ability of a boat is concerned, rocker hugerly influences that, too. That's why the Prelude turns so well, high amounts of rocker. It's also why the Prelude boofs so well.

My second Prelude (still a Pyranha boat) has a flattened bottom, I find the difference is less in stability than more in draft, the flattened bottom gets much less hung up in shallow river sections.
as far as I have been told the difference in bottom flatness between the Pyranha and the Esquif version of the Prelude is due to the way the booat is cooles down once it's out of the mold. The Esquif boats are apparently sitting of a flat surface to cool down, which leads to the flatter bottom, while the pyranha boats were apparently sitting on a cooling rack.

TGG!

[milkman]

I'm not sure on the difference in twitchiness between the Pyranha and Esquif versions of the Prelude. The one day I was out with a guy who had the Pyranha version we couldn't trade boats because neither of us fit in the other's bulkhead outfitting. I believe I noticed that his boat was wider than mine.

The Prelude is definitely more twitchy in its primary than the Phantom, but has as solid or more solid secondary.

Phantoms are great boats. Too bad they're not an option in the paddling world any more. But when yours wears out, there are a lot of great other choices now in small PE canoes (Prelude, L'edge, Maxim, and who knows, maybe eventually the Zoom).

[jnorto01]

Just FYI

Weight in the Zoom

I'm 170lbs. By the time I put on my rescue vest, take a couple liters of water to drink, and put my lunch, first aid kit, extra insulation layer in the junk bag...er...I mean dry bag, that probably brings the boat load to about 190-200lbs. I would guess that any more weight than that would be problematic for the boat.

That said, reflexes and balance need to be good to take advantage of what the Zoom is capable of. The boat is totally honest and predictable, you just have to be fast enough to deal with it.

I consider the Zoom a do-all boat, except maybe creeking but that is only cause its made of Royalex. Poly version PLEASE!

[greybear]

I tried a friends Rodeo once on Clear Creek, it seemed to paddle fine but turning the gunnels were in the water or very close and it also seemed very wet.
I owned a Zoom once not really for me, but I know plently of folks who love the boat.
My favorite for almost everthing is the Detonator. Its doesn't seem very popular in this poll, but I love mine. It is great on Whitetop, Wilsons, and other low cfs stuff, but does great in big water like the Noli over 2000 cfs and the New.
It is slow on the flats but it seems fast enough in rapids, I don't race and catches eddies without any effort. It is very stable and handles my weight 175lbs great. Yeah it wetter than some but drier than others.
I wish they made it out of something more durable that is my only issue with it.
I am very interested in the Maxim, if anyone has that I can demo let me know.
Greybear

[Longboatin]

Alright, still no explanation of "edge to edge" transition. Not sure it has anyting to do w/ primary stability or staying on a particular edge, sorry jrsh. As people have used it, seem to me to mean how the hull rocks from one side to another. In a side 2 side transition, I could fathom hull design plays a role, but I cant imagine it would really be noticeable in a seat of the pants experiment. Anybody else w/ insight?

Round shapes 4 hulls - Ived paddled old o/c slalom boats that had rounded hulls w/ tumblehome, and there are lots of carvy edges to those hull types.
Besides, the medium that a boat is harnessing has no sharp edges to be seen. Water is very curvy, and circular.
And, even "sharp" chines are radii, just small, so a hull that is one larger radius DOES have edges. I believe mutiple edges exist.
Also, Gonzo points out Rocker...again, large radius

[Craig Smerda]

Alright, still no explanation of "edge to edge" transition. Not sure it has anyting to do w/ primary stability or staying on a particular edge, sorry jrsh. As people have used it, seem to me to mean how the hull rocks from one side to another. In a side 2 side transition, I could fathom hull design plays a role, but I cant imagine it would really be noticeable in a seat of the pants experiment. Anybody else w/ insight?

I prefer a hull that has a distinct transition (harder edge) when it goes from being on it's primary stability to it's secondary stability rather than one that sloshes or rocks from one to the other (softer rounder edge and rounder bottom).

A lot of this has to do with the roundness of the bottom of the hull, the amount of sidewall flare and the transition (chine) between the two. Most every boat has a "chine" unless it's completely round.

Here's actually a very good example of what we're really talking about from Mohawk's website...

http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/whitewater.htm

[Longboatin]

Smer - -Thanks 4 the visual. Boy its always language that causing confusion. So the transition is what ur calling an edge, I was thinking of edge as the moments when a hull has the ability to carve into or draw energy from the water.

[Craig Smerda]

Smer - -Thanks 4 the visual. Boy its always language that causing confusion. So the transition is what ur calling an edge, I was thinking of edge as the moments when a hull has the ability to carve into or draw energy from the water.

basically the "edge" is the transitional area.

hope this helps...

[P-LX]

That's exactly why I wouldn't vote for a Zoom, I like to paddle all types of water....

I've also bit my tongue before at this Canadian mumbo-jumbo - but really don't understand this I'm from Canada, so I paddle bigger water than you mentality... I might as well say I'm from the southeast and know mo' bout running steep creeks, ...that would be just as erroneous. Yes - Canada has large volume water, but it doesn't have any exclusive hold on the stuff... It's everywhere! I'm sure I could tell you how to paddle some of that big water better (for starters - get a new boat)...Just as I'm sure someone from Canada, could tell me how to better paddle something steep!

I'm just saying Canadian and US boaters are basically the same, and one's not better than the other in big water - nor steep. However - granted there does appear to be way more Open Boaters up yonder. It's just about time to put aside this ill-perceived notion about BIG WATER, and talk about boats... not oh - we do this better... no we do... (crap). I bad mouth the Zoom, out of personal preference - and not the canoeist in boat, nor the man making them.

Okay phil, I think you just don't understand what I wanna say. I don't know if it's beacuse of my poor english or what, but I had never say that we are,in QUEBEC, better big water paddler. What I want to say is that i think, (but maybe I'm wrong,correct me if I'm wrong), that a lot of guys on this forum paddle more creek because it is what they get in their neighborhood. I don't neither talk about big watter river, but about bigger water than you, but I just want to say, beacuse we got a lot of river, we got some great medium river("slalom style") with class3-4-5.

A last thing, I never say we don't get any creeks here in Quebec, because that is false, I just say that ME, I can have fun on other things than creek so I don't do a lot of creek yet, but not necessarily because of the shape of my boat.

[marclamenace]

As far as I can see Phil you are right everybody has water but to me what seems to make the different, although we both know the difference between high or low volume stuff, to me is:

You southern hillbillys get rivers whenever you get enough rain. We get rivers in april, then it progressively goes down to almost none in summertime, then back for some in oct-nov before it freezes over again. But even the small creeks are huge every april.

What this does I think (besides us FRRRRREAKING OUT every april ) is that basically even the smaller creeks we have gets flushed big time once a year and their structure is therefore large enough that they look and feel empty when they don't have enough water, with you walking or basically poling and rock bouncing all day long. So we basically don't paddle them unless they are juicy and wild. After that we look for bigger river types, then bigger or huge ones that may still have some water... then we go fishing on lakes in august.

But wait, I may be totally wrong as well... Maybe we just don't have a formal GDI river crash test dummies team around to prove me wrong.

Basically we do all see either big or small sometimes but I think that the general river types we paddle in most of our rivertime DOES vary from a place to another. Just say'in.

[philcanoe]

was just taking a cheap shot....

... we all have more than enough water to get really scared on. I boat with a misplaced Canadian all the time. We nearly got the North'n out of him, but he's back in Gatineau land now. We get really blown out down here, but it's not acres across like some I've seen up in Canada. I've just heard that we got big water from Canadians, in reference to some of the low water we do. Heard it out west also, when there was more than enough water. I just know enough really capable technically advanced Canadian Boaters, to not fire back a salvo - when hearing that we-got-you-got argument. BECAUSE... we all got.

I was really headed more into challenging the assumption, that one boat could really be the best of everything. In the world of open canoes, we're still looking for a do everything. In decked boats, they use'em like golf clubs. You pull out what you need, for that day (or portion of). There's play boats, creek boats, river runners, even long boats. I've a couple boats that I routinely swap up.

[ckingoc1]

As far as I can see Phil you are right everybody has water but to me what seems to make the different, although we both know the difference between high or low volume stuff, to me is:

You southern hillbillys get rivers whenever you get enough rain. We get rivers in april, then it progressively goes down to almost none in summertime, then back for some in oct-nov before it freezes over again. But even the small creeks are huge every april.

What this does I think (besides us FRRRRREAKING OUT every april ) is that basically even the smaller creeks we have gets flushed big time once a year and their structure is therefore large enough that they look and feel empty when they don't have enough water, with you walking or basically poling and rock bouncing all day long. So we basically don't paddle them unless they are juicy and wild. After that we look for bigger river types, then bigger or huge ones that may still have some water... then we go fishing on lakes in august.

But wait, I may be totally wrong as well... Maybe we just don't have a formal GDI river crash test dummies team around to prove me wrong.

Basically we do all see either big or small sometimes but I think that the general river types we paddle in most of our rivertime DOES vary from a place to another. Just say'in.

Feel better now?

[marclamenace]

we all have more than enough water to get really scared on.

I just know enough really capable technically advanced Canadian Boaters, to not fire back a salvo - when hearing that we-got-you-got argument. BECAUSE... we all got.

You're absolutely right. Still when I see videos posted like the bullet creek, I kinda wish we had more narrow steep stuff like these around here... Guess we all need a private plane in addition to our boat collection

Trying to get back at the original thread... or almost there...

I was really headed more into challenging the assumption, that one boat could really be the best of everything. In the world of open canoes, we're still looking for a do everything. In decked boats, they use'em like golf clubs. You pull out what you need, for that day (or portion of). There's play boats, creek boats, river runners, even long boats.

You have a very good point here.
As I like beeing the bugger I do have to agree... and not!
Open boats are not like decked one. You won't throw a cartwheel out of even a small maxim now would you?
I just got into C1 last year myself, but as an open boater I used to have three of them, they are different but don't fit in the usual kayakish categories you mentionned.

I had a duo triping boat (MR freedom), a solo triping boat (MR ME) that I also like to use as a duo playboat and a creeker flipboat (prelude) as well.

But the tendency you mentionned is dang right. A lot of people in my canoe club have nitros for that very reason; a unique playboat you can stuff a week worth of gears in. Nice until you finally realize the boat actually sucks at both uses