Video of why Kayaker make the worst swimmers
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
i tried that "windmill" stroke, it made me dizzy. like phil says, i just backstroke w/frog kick to back ferry, pretty soon you hit a rock and grab hold, climb up, or catch the eddy behind it. then you climb the rock, survey the surrounding water, throw the paddle to shore (or a buddy) and execute a planned self rescue, swim-ferrying from eddy to eddy. not that i ever swim or anything. and from my nice dry vantage point here it looked like there were plenty of eddies to be had. just boatin without a boat. and as for the cold part, you shouldn't be boating cold water without the proper gear. really only your face should be cold.
Joe
Not that I know much about swimming, but that "windmill stroke" works. It helps transfer your downstream momentum into a lateral move and cross the eddie line, just reach for the water in the eddy and as Nealy says "never give up".
Allowed me to cling to a rock just above National falls while friendlys could plan an extraction. Was a good instance to keeping a spare paddle in the boat so was able to run National instead on walking the rest of the river.
Back ferry swimming is also fun to play with rescuers during SWR classes to make them work for their rescue.
Allowed me to cling to a rock just above National falls while friendlys could plan an extraction. Was a good instance to keeping a spare paddle in the boat so was able to run National instead on walking the rest of the river.
Back ferry swimming is also fun to play with rescuers during SWR classes to make them work for their rescue.
Proud Yankee
what's young - what's fit - what's well-geared- what's a paddling & rescue instructoryarnellboat wrote:. . . Not to mention that they looked young, fit and well-geared, and were paddling & rescue instructors.
got to do with it.
Me thinks' (yeah - here I go again)
***good thing they is young - means there still may be a chance for them... certainly doesn't mean they were experienced - only gaining some...
***good thing they're fit - cause you need to be, if that's the way your gaining experience... just means an old fart, better be doing something different
***good gear, well that just means he wasn't stupid- good thing
***and finally (The Biggy) - all the rest (above stuff) was just poking fun, in jest
they were instructors and rescue instructors at that... well whopp'd-do, you do know they practically give those things away. You in essence buy them, you agree to spend a weekend or two... pay up... and then you get to be an instructor... I've confronted the head instructor dude on this before (I'm not talking behind no ones back on this one)
some of the worst paddlers I know - are instructors... some of the worst teachers I know - are instructors... bone-a-fide card carrying ACA - dues paying - every year - re'certificating - can tell you all the names of the strokes - and why you're paddling wrong paddling instructors... I don't know what rescue kayakers are taught, but (I hate to say this) I'd trust Louie to get me out first over what I saw, and he doesn't do that... I've had occasion to come behind the real rescuers, those high/flying/fire/truck/driving kind - took me less than a 2minutes to do what they took 4 hours to do... the TV reporter said so.... another time it took 4days to get the body out, well they didn't - we (4 of us good ole boys, well one was a Canuck ) did in about 3 hours after arriving (there was 4 complete rescue squads, and a helicopter)... I'm not impress by so called instructors, and rescue type people... it's not just something you learn - it's something you do
I commend these guys... dam tough run... and way to hang in there.... and bravo for posting... maybe someone will be spared because of it... and I'm not knocking them for being instructors, they make be excellent; however swimming big rapids is not their forte
And yes, I have taken swift water training.
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yarnellboat
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Phil,
I totally agree that being an instructor doesn't mean anyone's a good boater, that's the least important of the things I mentioned.
My only point is, from I saw in the video, they didn't appear to be unprepared yahoos, which is kinda what I expected after Louie's set-up. I mentioned fit in particular, because of my recent reminder of how exhausting/demanding it is to swim in whitewater. And even when dressed right, ice-cold whitewater still sucks more out of you.
How much front crawl are you good for in those kinds currents? Have you seen Michael Phelps' body? And after you're tired from fighting the first eddy line, and you go down for spin cycle - cna't see where you are, sucking air/water through your teeth - how many more good strokes are in you for the next eddy? And so on for several minutes.
I get everything you and others are saying about swimming philosophies & techniques, but I just didn't see much opportunity for it in the stretch of water. I just think this rapid was a bit much to put those theories into practice... from my impression of that water, there wasn't a lot of hope for holding onto your boat and trying different paddle grips to merrily ferry yourself about. I didn't see many rocks that were hop-onable. I'm all for that stuff where possible, but that river just looked too raging.
I expect the dude knew all that and tried all that, but was getting trashed by strong currents and meaty holes. Seems there's agreement on the theory, just different opinions on what was realistic in that river.
Maybe some of you could've swum the heck out of those rapids from rock-to-eddy and back again, holding your boat and trying different strokes. But I think most people would be like him (or worse if they weren't in good shape and wearing the right gear) - tired & sputtering.
Hey, I guess that's why I don't paddle continuous class IV in icy bank-full rivers.
Pat.
I totally agree that being an instructor doesn't mean anyone's a good boater, that's the least important of the things I mentioned.
My only point is, from I saw in the video, they didn't appear to be unprepared yahoos, which is kinda what I expected after Louie's set-up. I mentioned fit in particular, because of my recent reminder of how exhausting/demanding it is to swim in whitewater. And even when dressed right, ice-cold whitewater still sucks more out of you.
How much front crawl are you good for in those kinds currents? Have you seen Michael Phelps' body? And after you're tired from fighting the first eddy line, and you go down for spin cycle - cna't see where you are, sucking air/water through your teeth - how many more good strokes are in you for the next eddy? And so on for several minutes.
I get everything you and others are saying about swimming philosophies & techniques, but I just didn't see much opportunity for it in the stretch of water. I just think this rapid was a bit much to put those theories into practice... from my impression of that water, there wasn't a lot of hope for holding onto your boat and trying different paddle grips to merrily ferry yourself about. I didn't see many rocks that were hop-onable. I'm all for that stuff where possible, but that river just looked too raging.
I expect the dude knew all that and tried all that, but was getting trashed by strong currents and meaty holes. Seems there's agreement on the theory, just different opinions on what was realistic in that river.
Maybe some of you could've swum the heck out of those rapids from rock-to-eddy and back again, holding your boat and trying different strokes. But I think most people would be like him (or worse if they weren't in good shape and wearing the right gear) - tired & sputtering.
Hey, I guess that's why I don't paddle continuous class IV in icy bank-full rivers.
Pat.
Last edited by yarnellboat on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Larry Horne
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I don't know why poeople are knocking the guy for not swimming aggresively. The reason he was swimming is because he got worked in a hole for who knows how long. That is exhausting. And did he get recirc'd after ejecting? After a few recircs he could have easily been face down.
He was just whipped by the time we saw him. After he got a little break and a chance to breathe by holding the stern of his buddies boat, he did in fact swim into the first feasable eddy. Most people get more useless the longer they are in the water, but he pulled it together. I say good job.
That was some f'ing big water to be swimmin in. Unless you saw the whole thing, and if you have never had a swim in big water, you don't have any right to be critical.
He was just whipped by the time we saw him. After he got a little break and a chance to breathe by holding the stern of his buddies boat, he did in fact swim into the first feasable eddy. Most people get more useless the longer they are in the water, but he pulled it together. I say good job.
That was some f'ing big water to be swimmin in. Unless you saw the whole thing, and if you have never had a swim in big water, you don't have any right to be critical.
Larry
just one more thing concerning white water swimming. When trying to catch an eddy always spin round the long axis of your body changing the Micheal Phelps into a windmill for one stroke. The eddy will accept you better. I always teach and practice that with clients while rafting. Havent seen it mentioned in the posts here. Might be useful.
And concerning the guy who swam in the video. I think he might have been quite exhausted and out of his mind by the time he reached the other kayakers, thats probably why he wasnt able to get to the bank straight away.
And concerning the guy who swam in the video. I think he might have been quite exhausted and out of his mind by the time he reached the other kayakers, thats probably why he wasnt able to get to the bank straight away.
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TheKrikkitWars
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I would respectfully suggest Louie & others dismount their high horses.
Just because whilst agressive swimming has its place, does not mean it's always appropriate, it's not even appropriate in most circumstances.
I would agree that attempting self rescue is important, but It is my personal expeirience that it's far from always possible, and never easy; remember that the first rule of [self] rescue is don't do anything that puts the victim in a worse position; further using his energy fruitlessly to attempt to get out would have more than likely have caused that poor sod to get a far worse beating than he did.
Just because whilst agressive swimming has its place, does not mean it's always appropriate, it's not even appropriate in most circumstances.
I would agree that attempting self rescue is important, but It is my personal expeirience that it's far from always possible, and never easy; remember that the first rule of [self] rescue is don't do anything that puts the victim in a worse position; further using his energy fruitlessly to attempt to get out would have more than likely have caused that poor sod to get a far worse beating than he did.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
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Louie
No I think I will stay on my high horse.
Don't get me wrong no one likes to watch a butt boater frail around more than me. I love it when they dutifly followin the Amerian Kayakers rule of floatin on your back feet up down river and wait for someone else to lay their butt on the line to save your sorry butt while you don't do a dam thing to help yourself. It is also true that head cams are the worst way to video whitewater and we can not really get a good idea of the size of the river. I do know for a fact on a "couple" of occations I have swum bigger water than that and have never just passavily waited for someone else to help me. Of the old sayin of "Love many, trust few, and always paddle your own canoe" The first two are of equal importance. Also before any of you all put too much faith in that "low water Louie" myth. Remember while I prefere non flood river, I have done more than my share of flood ones.
Don't get me wrong no one likes to watch a butt boater frail around more than me. I love it when they dutifly followin the Amerian Kayakers rule of floatin on your back feet up down river and wait for someone else to lay their butt on the line to save your sorry butt while you don't do a dam thing to help yourself. It is also true that head cams are the worst way to video whitewater and we can not really get a good idea of the size of the river. I do know for a fact on a "couple" of occations I have swum bigger water than that and have never just passavily waited for someone else to help me. Of the old sayin of "Love many, trust few, and always paddle your own canoe" The first two are of equal importance. Also before any of you all put too much faith in that "low water Louie" myth. Remember while I prefere non flood river, I have done more than my share of flood ones.
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TheKrikkitWars
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I don't have an issue with what you were saying, I disagree with some of your perceptions of this event, but you backed up all your criticism with solid advice, experience and good ideas.philcanoe wrote:I believe everyone has an to opinion, even a respectfully wrong one. I was writing in the hope of helping someone, pointing out a couple helpful ideas, and maybe of preventing a tragedy.TheKrikkitWars wrote:I would respectfully suggest Louie & others dismount their high horses.
It was the snarky and superior attitude (with a distinct lack of substance behind it) being brought into this right from the start by Louie that got me riled.
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
One more swimming tip, especially as it relates to big water...
It helps to keep the feet up, and not down too deep. In situations where you're dealing with higher flows, in particularly flows with considerable variations in cross flows, interacting with the fewest of these - is of utmost importance. And is even beneficial in plan old high volume straight line currents. Where just lessening your profile to the current, will decrease the amount of force you're trying to counteract.
However when coupling in crosscurrents and differing layers of water, there are additional benefits to be gained. Just everyday straight-line current has differing flows from top, to middle, to bottom. Frictional resistance on the bottom, on structures with-in, and even surface fluctuations alter the speed in which the current is head downstream. If a body is spanning these different regions, it's easy (as well as likely) to get started into a spin or tumbling motion. This sucks! Now you might not even be heads up. And certainly are - in less of a position to help yourself out, to see what's coming up, less able to fend off opposing-rocks, may begin to receive blows from unknown angles, and way less responsive toward receiving possible assistance. When adding in all the varying layers from crosscurrents, this situation is much more likely to happen.
Sound like I've been there?
I was running the Watauga, something a bit steeper than the video run. The low-water bridge was underwater. Not sure of the volume or level, but was much more than a mere bank-full condition. I had never swam anything like this before. The first really good drop, not sure of the name (rock something or bump that), whatever it was I dive bombed in blindly. It was my first time down, and had no clue as to the fun I would be having. I was instantly out of my boat, popped up, and went to defensive posture. A posture with my feet sort of down too much. The next thing I know... I'm rolling and tumbling, I'm no longer on top, I'm nearer the bottom... and I can feel this bottom and everything else attached to the bottom, with parts I had no intention - no desire - nor ever want to again. I was simply rolling and tumbling, all along the bottom, and not headed up. I tell this story, hopefully to not have to respond to post questioning... Asking if I really had any first hand experience, in the matter in which I'm writing. Or if this was only... something I'd read, a class I took, or possibly some sort of visualization I'd made up. (maybe you'll notice all the 'I's)
As to conjecture - I believe, I was caught below the interface, of the slower bottom current, and the faster middle layer. And maybe if balling up, I 'might' have surfaced sooner - than 'I' did remaining all stretched out.
What I do know for sure, is it helps to reduce your profile, and keep your feet up some. First hand, too many times tested, unequivocally true. Well at least until heading down, after going over a drop of some sort. Where I tend to ball up more, but that's a different discussion.
It helps to keep the feet up, and not down too deep. In situations where you're dealing with higher flows, in particularly flows with considerable variations in cross flows, interacting with the fewest of these - is of utmost importance. And is even beneficial in plan old high volume straight line currents. Where just lessening your profile to the current, will decrease the amount of force you're trying to counteract.
However when coupling in crosscurrents and differing layers of water, there are additional benefits to be gained. Just everyday straight-line current has differing flows from top, to middle, to bottom. Frictional resistance on the bottom, on structures with-in, and even surface fluctuations alter the speed in which the current is head downstream. If a body is spanning these different regions, it's easy (as well as likely) to get started into a spin or tumbling motion. This sucks! Now you might not even be heads up. And certainly are - in less of a position to help yourself out, to see what's coming up, less able to fend off opposing-rocks, may begin to receive blows from unknown angles, and way less responsive toward receiving possible assistance. When adding in all the varying layers from crosscurrents, this situation is much more likely to happen.
Sound like I've been there?
I was running the Watauga, something a bit steeper than the video run. The low-water bridge was underwater. Not sure of the volume or level, but was much more than a mere bank-full condition. I had never swam anything like this before. The first really good drop, not sure of the name (rock something or bump that), whatever it was I dive bombed in blindly. It was my first time down, and had no clue as to the fun I would be having. I was instantly out of my boat, popped up, and went to defensive posture. A posture with my feet sort of down too much. The next thing I know... I'm rolling and tumbling, I'm no longer on top, I'm nearer the bottom... and I can feel this bottom and everything else attached to the bottom, with parts I had no intention - no desire - nor ever want to again. I was simply rolling and tumbling, all along the bottom, and not headed up. I tell this story, hopefully to not have to respond to post questioning... Asking if I really had any first hand experience, in the matter in which I'm writing. Or if this was only... something I'd read, a class I took, or possibly some sort of visualization I'd made up. (maybe you'll notice all the 'I's)
As to conjecture - I believe, I was caught below the interface, of the slower bottom current, and the faster middle layer. And maybe if balling up, I 'might' have surfaced sooner - than 'I' did remaining all stretched out.
What I do know for sure, is it helps to reduce your profile, and keep your feet up some. First hand, too many times tested, unequivocally true. Well at least until heading down, after going over a drop of some sort. Where I tend to ball up more, but that's a different discussion.
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Louie
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Craig Smerda
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Michael Phelps Phil... really... seriously?philcanoe wrote:Before going to the Michael Phelps freestyle crawl stroke, and exposing yourself....
I figured you more for the Mark Spitz type?
Anyways... as I had stated... WTH the lead boater didn't jump out of his boat and toss a rope when he was in the eddy is beyond me... it makes no sense? I guess that's one more perk to open boating... hop out... toss your boat on shore and chuck the rope and it's (in theory) all over. Granted the water is moving fast and we don't know how wide the river was there along with ten other variables... but there were plenty of chase paddlers... so why not try to rope him to shore???
I'm glad the guy is o.k. but there's a lot to learn from in that video and to his benefit I credit him for publishing the footage so other people can discuss and gain knowledge from it.
Whitewater paddling is dangerous as we all know but it's best to be armed with the maximum amount of knowledge one can get when choosing to participate in this sport. Starting out in OC's made me a bit of an otter when it comes to swimming... and to a point Louie is exactly right... kayakers learn to roll 1st and foremost and they rely on their rolls... but when the $hit hits the fan the vast majority of them are clueless and frankly uncomfortable swimming in a fast moving river. Having a bomber roll is great... but so is having the knowledge to try to save your own a$$ when you have to.
I know some people don't agree with this comment... but for the most part you should always be comfortable with the potential that you just might swim something you plan to run. It can happen to any of us.