Video of why Kayaker make the worst swimmers

[philcanoe]

We were talking safety here weren't we...

... how could you wrong with Phelps.

[Sir Adam]

A few thoughts:

1) We weren't there
2) We're all just between swims
3) We can always learn from others, even if we disagree with them, if we keep an open mind (even if it is what NOT to do)
4) We all need to lighten up around here. Too much armchair safety boating being done. Moderators are keeping an eye on it. Please keep to the topic and not attack one another.

[the great gonzo]

AMEN!

TGG!

[Louie]

happen to Jonnie Weismiller, that is who Andy Bridge said I looked like above Spinal Adjustment on Henderson...or was it Fire Escape I think I swum both.

[Larry Horne]

wow, that was quite the rant...but who said anything about STEEP?

[philcanoe]

rant removed....

... must of been showing my

[2opnboat1]

I read most of the post; and i got to say Everybosy needs to change there tampons and get over it Homeboy swam big deal, we have all swam and will swim again, I have swam big water and little creeks, In my opinion floating is for rafters and kaykers that dint know any better. I can say that in big water it is way harder, but that means ya try harder, I notice this attitude in northern boaters and out west boaters they tend to float more. NOT that this is wrong but is is what they are used to, THis works on big water but not the steep in the southeast. If you are an ACA unstructor stop reading now you are about to be offended.

The worst boaters that I have meet are all ACA instructors. Just because you can teach dont mean ya can do it. The ACA is the worst thing to happen to the canoe world in the last few decades, everything around them has changed but there teaching. I dont get why boats change and they are still teaching the J stroke for ww.

So that is my two cents which dont mean nothing to no one but me. If people would spend as much time boating as they do on here trying to fluff there egos; The OC world might do something again.

Richard

[Longboatin]

Dont know nuthin' bout the ACA... but the J-stroke is highly effective, ww or not. Guess yer one o them goon stroke afficienados, or B foote raftn strokers.

In the Mid-Atlantic here we do indeed swim if necessary.

Though from the bulk of footage the souties have posted here, I doubt ya guys really swim. Seems more like stall on shallow spot, tip, fall out of boat, stand up, walk to shore in ankle to knee deep water.
Cant wait 4 luge boatin at ALF, yeah!

[2opnboat1]

Hate to say it but I would love to see what you are all about if you ever come down south. No I am not a Bob foote kid the only real famous boater i have been affilated with is Whitesell. You sure seem to always comment on what we do down here but I have yet to see any footage of you. If ya have it show us teach us poor southernerz something. Please come play with Us at ALF. Please, YOU HAVE BEEN CALLED OUT STEP UP

[LarryFromPittsburgh]

I'm pretty new to thos board, but this thread really goes to the heart of whitewater cruising, so this -

An (iconic southern) paddler once told me that he does not expectto be rescued by the people that he paddles with and that he does not paddle with people who expect to be rescued. The message then, and now, was clear. Rely on yourself, first.

That said, that paddler, whose initials are RH and who made a career of taking pictures, made that statement to me during an ACA WWOC instructor's class along about 20 years ago. The course was being taught on the Nantahala by another remarkably capable open boater from western NC.

Back then, the ACA instruction program was not muddied with forty-seven different qualifying levels and the few "instructor trainers" that existed were excellent boaters. Back then, you met the criteria or you didn't.

A lot has changed in the past 20 years. The ACA "course" offering allows just about anybody to get "certified" at some level and "dicipline" or another resulting in a few "instructors" who ain't so much.

One thing that has not changed, and here I got to agree with Louie, is the idea that you save yourself. Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. If you are relying on someone else to "rescue" you, you may be in for a long swim.

Of course, I am frequently regarded as from the "old school", that taught us to boat within our own capacity and to rely on our own skills to run a river. (Probably why I'm racing dragon-boats now-a-days).

Larry Wentzel
Pittsburgh, PA

[TheKrikkitWars]

The worst boaters that I have meet are all ACA instructors. Just because you can teach dont mean ya can do it. The ACA is the worst thing to happen to the canoe world in the last few decades, everything around them has changed but there teaching.

I'm with you on this one, the BCU (Britain's slightly more switched on equivalent of the ACCA) has recently had a massive change in it's coaching scheme to eliminate people teaching outdated shite, followed six months after implementation with a "Night of the Long Knives" trying to get rid of Instructor-Trainers who would pass any Tom, Dick and Harry who paid for assessment;

Yet still some slip through the net, I know of people who are "qualified" to lead and teach on class 3/4 who are too scared and incapable to paddle a big and bouncy class 2 without someone leading them. They passed because the assessor was their friend, if I could find out his name I'd report him...

Makes me mad that such imbaceils are giving clients a distorted view of what paddling is all about, and worse still teaching them crap that some poor sucker is going to have to get them to unlearn, before they can get any good.

(I should point out that some of the best paddlers I've boated with are also Qualified Coaches, just they started out by getting really freaking good, then started to teach people, & finally got some quali's and turned it into a business.)

[/end rant]

[Craig Smerda]

Here's my ONE question regarding our aspect of the sport... How many of you CAN roll and does seeing a brutal swim like this (or others you've seen) inspire you to learn?

Granted even though those of us that have a predictably good roll swim now and again the vast majority of Open Boaters I have seen cannot roll and will more than likely auto-eject than attempt to roll.

This is not a slam... just an open and forthright observation and may not be totally applicable to the footage or scenario as shown.

Having a solid and predictable roll opened many doors for me and I personally feel that our aspect of the sport lags behind due to the fact that so many OC'ers are also swimmers. Kayakers are taught to roll almost immediately... but OC'ers aren't? Why is that?

I know this has been hashed over countless times here... but rolling in most cases equates to surviving. I've swam... and I have no shame in admitting it but my roll has saved me from many ugly swims over the years and I'm greatful I can generally rely upon it.

I'm proud of my own self-rescue abilities as many of us probably are in comparison to kayakers... but as I've stated... most OC'ers not having a reliable roll has and will continue to hold us back as a collective group until we move forward.

If you do one thing this winter regarless of geographic location... get to a pool session, go to the lake and find your roll... you'll be happy you did.

Craig

[TheKrikkitWars]

Craig, you'll be happy to know that across the pond at least, almost all OpenBoaters seem to buy an open boat and then make a good stab at learning to roll it before even considering taking it outside, with differing degrees of reliability.

Who you paddle with seems to be the crux of this, like most UK C-boaters I'm forced to paddle with butt-boaters, who in turn expect me to be at least as good as them. I had a shaky run and a swim recently and it's been made clear that if I start to make a habit of swimming, they'll refuse to paddle with me unless I'm in my "normal" closed C1.

It all goes back to some advice I was given when I first got my CU Fly "Make sure you paddle with Kayakers, Their almost unrealisticly high expectations of you will make you learn quicker and try harder."

[Craig Smerda]

It all goes back to some advice I was given when I first got my CU Fly "Make sure you paddle with Kayakers, Their almost unrealisticly high expectations of you will make you learn quicker and try harder."

I concur... and I played a lot with the kayakers becuase they were playing in the fun stuff I wanted to or because our play locations were the same or overlapped. Those in our group that couldn't roll... didn't want to play or didn't see the point in what we were doing moved downstream while we party'd on. I never saw the point of paddling if you couldn't enjoy many aspects of it. I'm not the best playboater, the best slalom racer or the best creeker out there by any means... but I think being skilled and well rounded in each and all of these aspects makes each and every river day far more enjoyable for me than it might for others. One slogan I love was that of Pyranha years ago... "Play the River" and to me this meant from the minute you got in your boat until the minute you got out... every eddy, every hole, every wave, drop, ledge and slot has something to offer... if you refuse to acknowledge it... you are the one missing out... your personal mileage may vary.

[Louie]

RH = Robert Harrison ?

My roll is about 50% but I do tend to roll in the more crux sistutions than I do in run of the mill rapids.

I don't have a clue about insturtors and their abilities. I do know that Swift water rescue type tend to be major goobs. The Idoits they had linein the course at the 96 Olympics was one of the best examples of this. The way you learn how to be good at helpin other ain't taught in some high dollar course, it is learned by bein on the river with people who know what they are doin watchin someone save someone else in a real life or death event is remembers a hellva a lot better than fifty classes by some wantabes.

Remember the American Kayaker recomendes that everyone take a swift water rescue course. This alone is more than enought reason to avoid them like the plauge.

I still think that guy in the video would have been a lot better off if he had tried to save himself quicker,