What is big water?

[Mike Gardner]

I think that "Big Water" is somewhat personal and relative. I have been paddling for just a couple of years and remember when classI riffles were intimidating let alone class II. That was huge water. Now 2 years of regular paddling later, classIII/ IV are scary but that may be because I'm almost 60 and don't have the years of background that many of you have. On the other hand, teaching new pilots wasn't scary at all. What you are used to guess
Mike

[oopsiflipped]

'big water' can mean different things. some people might confuse it with high water.

the big salmon in idaho at 5000 cfs is low water, but it might seem big if you are used to running stuff at 200 cfs.

i consider high water to be when you start to see irregular hydraulics. roving boils hidden in wave trains, eddy fences, waves that appear and disappear or break when least expected.

i consider big water to be large volume rivers. i never thought of the gauley as big water before, but after not paddling anything with more than about 1200 cfs in it all summer, it felt pretty big this year.

[craig]

To me big water is related to the size river/riverbed. But generally waves you can't see over 4 ft+, chaotic turbulence, exploding waves, holes that are 4ft deep or more. These would qualify for me. But I'm just a wuss, what do I know?

[D-Caption]

To me its probably Big Water vs High Water. When your paddlin a 14 ft Caption and the waves and holes are so big that your friend gets to see the Bottom of your boat from underneath while following you down the river, the holes are so sticky they stop your 14 ft boat and surf you, the eddies are when you grab hold of a tree limb as you go by, and when you swim it last for about 3/4 of a mile till you get back in thinkin what am I doing here. Wondering what is around the next bend and sayin hey this is FUN, but at the end of the day you have that bitter /sweet feeling and glad that you didn/t whimp out because......YOU ARE A WHITEWATER PADDLER AND YOU REFUSE TO QUIT... BUT YOU STILL... HAVE respect for the river and dare not get too cocky and you thank GOD for His mercy He extended to you today. Thats big water to me. D-Caption

[horizongfx]

In 1983 I saw God on the New river at 9 feet, and I didn't even swim.

I saw the devil on the Upper Ocoee one time, he was paddling a new wave Mongoose outfitted as a C-1 !!

[Larry Horne]

Big water. it's what makes me look for excuses to be shuttle bunny.
....uhhh i forgot my helmet. Sorry guys.

[rcgalwa]

Kennebec at 4800cfs and above! For anyone who has run it in an open boat, enough said!

[D-Caption]

Big water. it's what makes me look for excuses to be shuttle bunny.
....uhhh i forgot my helmet. Sorry guys.

Hey Larry, I tried to use that on o a flooded creek awhile back and some stranger came by with a PFD in his truck and messed things up so I had to paddle anyway,ran the biggest rapid on the river backward without a swim. Yep, I ment to do that. Ha... sure you did... funny how things seem to work out. D-Caption Little Water Guru...

[Louie]

Bald river a month ago I forgot my helment that is why in the video I have on a different helment at each rapid. Everytime someone would portage a rapid i would borrow their helment

[Larry Horne]

hey louie why would you need a helmet? seems you never get yer head under water

[golder]

i think it aint big water till its gets real funky and unpredictable. when all sorts of weird things start bubbling up, eddy walls get 4' tall, rouge waves form out of nowhere, waves explode, and holes surge and pulse looking like they could pull a bird out of the sky, thats big water.

big water makes me think of the new at anything above 10', the lower gauley at 10 grand or the upper when it starts to get much above fall flow. honestly, i'd just as soon be on a raft on those days.

[wday]

I think big water has two components. Scale and Strangity. Scale has to do with size of boat vs size of river. Strangity has to do with your ability to anticipate the rivers changes. Flooding rivers/creeks have high strangity because the river bed is changing. Big wide rivers always make me feel small (in scale), but at the same time the river may seem very predictable. I think paddling a small boat in a big wide river with lots of strange water would feel like big water to most folks (big scale + high strangity). I also think that a small narrow river that's flooding and basically choas would also feel like big water. For a given river/creek, scale is determined by choice of boat. However, strangity is determined by the paddlers brain, and for me is a big part of the "mental challenge" of whitewater.

I grew up rafting in ID, then kayaking in ID, and now rafting, kayaking, and open boating in the western US. So far for me the selway river at 5.5' (paradise guage) in a 14' cat has been the biggest water I've been in. Waves and holes were bigger than the cataraft and the river was starting to do stuff that was unpredictable for me. I ran the lower 5 on NF payette in a 14' cat at ~1800 cfs but everything seemed pretty straightforward to me and the river did not feel big compared to the selway at 5.5' (my very rough guess is 5.5' at paradise =10,000 cfs at paradise). I think it's interesting that a lot of guide books and river descriptions that i've read refer to NF payette as "big water class V" for flows above 1200 cfs and most of the guide books and river descriptions i've read refer to the selway as "big water class V" or "approaching big water class V" for flows above 6' (paradise guage).

[Longboatin]

Buddy of mine has some serious high water shots of Wesser from '94. check it -


http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/phot ... 1403911260

http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid ... 1403911260

[philcanoe]

To me there's a difference between high water and big water.

This struck me while looking at Longboatin's Nanny pictures (above Facebook links). It's not the amount of volume in the river bead, as much as what's it doing. I remember running the Nantahala back in the 80's, it was flowing through the river left parking lot. We paddled over to where cars normally park (or maybe it was, just where they use to park). There was really nothing to the run. Wesser Falls was covered by the lake, and a mere bump at Lesser. Not near the action in those photos.

Same thing on some of our local garden variety - couple of feet runs, at 6or7 feet they are good size, and at 9-10-11 are stout. However at 16-20 feet, these same runs have flattened out a bunch and much mellower. Still extremely dangerous from debris, enormous tree choked eddys, and flooding through forest (complete w/ barabed wire). Challenging yes, but really not that fun or difficult. And I'm not saying that a Selway, New, or Congo would wash out, just that Big Water is more about a ratio of structure to volume - than mere height. We all know of certain favorite rapids, which are harder at lower levels.

Now I may be stirring the pot (again), but for instance (IMHO) the New at 2-4 feet is harder to run-dry, than 5-7 feet. Now is this really bigger, guess that would be how you define the word Big. The wave length (the intervals) spread apart, and you ride up and over at 5-7 feet. It's more like one of the no-named rapid days in the G'Canyon. Where at the lower flows, it's real easy to let the slosh in. And yes while it's larger, it's just not really much harder. Of course this run does get a lot bigger... and harder (and dangerous). Don't go jump on it, using this description.

When I hear big water (the term)... it's easy to mix or interchange it with high.

[Louie]

Longboat when and if you ever come south make sure I show you some picture of us in the late 70's on the Nanty at flood. No helments, cut off jeans, Seda life jackets, and a styrafoam block for floatation in our 16' OCA's.

BTW we weren't suprise when you posted those pictures that your friends were in Kayaks.