Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

[fez]

I also started with the roll.
Bought me a canoe (boy, I thought that would be my first and last one ), watched Kent Ford`s SOLO PLAYBOATING over and over, went to the pond and tried and tried.

[yarnellboat]

Some good points: lots of people progress into solo ww playboating from backgrounds in tandem tripping, there's not as many people to learn from, and it's easy to get out of a canoe.

Also, I think canoes are just more stable. Longboatin' probably doesn't need a roll in his 16-footers. I didn't have a roll for a long time in my Outrage (didn't know it was an option, read about it in Thrill of the Paddle), but put in me a C-1 palyboat (or a kayak) - partly because the boats flip easily and partly becasue you're skirted-in - and I'm not going on the river without a roll!

But there's no reason people don't learn to roll earlier, anyone can do it, meaning it doesn't relate to your boating/river skills - there's class II young ladies who can roll and burly class IV hotshots who can't.

Everyone should at least be trying it to develop better balance and braces. It's just another canoe stroke to learn.

I wouldn't say I paddle harder water because I roll (I don't rely on my roll when deciding what to run), but having a roll has allowed to be more comfortable playing on easier stuff, and so to get better and/or more confident paddling, which allows me to paddle harder (for me) stuff.

So, yeah, indirectly having a roll helped me progress to hareder rivers. Even if just from III to III+ and small IV - not a huge step, but there's lots of beautiful III+ runs that I'm really glad to able to experience comfortably!

Pat.

[Longboatin]

Dont need a roll in the longboat, cuz' I dont flip!
But I can and have rolld it in ww. Just sux b/c the boat gets real filld up, just better to get out, keep the boat upside down, thus filld w/ air, eddy out, flipr over, then hop back in.
Ditto what Louie says, dont make mistakes, dont need no roll.
Boat control, and knowing whats goin to happen before you hit somethin goes a long way toward that.

[sbroam]

A roll is still just correcting a mistake you made a few seconds earlier.

So, it's just like swimming then. Heck, maybe swimming's better - when I roll I still have to do something with a swamped boat.

For long time I had my own personal stigma attached to swimming - hated to inconvenience the group or slow the trip. Pride comes into it, too. Watching Louie and company has helped me take on a different point of view. Aggressive self rescue is what it is about - swimming *or* rolling. Still... There are times I really don't want to swim. I took my 10 year old out yesterday for a high water run on our local river. Especially in our biggest rapid it would be a long, cold swim if we flipped. We reviewed what we would do if we did flip. I told him he'd need to keep his paddle, swim hard and to which bank - pointing out that today was no day for floating on his back, toes up - he'd need to roll over and do "the Michael Phelps". But I also told him that I'd roll the boat up and come after him!

[philcanoe]

from the folks i know who've made the jump to the dark side... those who've started in canoes and gone to kayaks, they all say the same thing... it's like cheating you've got a brace on both sides, and you don't have to know but half the strokes...

i say this to illustrate that maybe a kayak roll is much easier... while it took me longer in a kayak, it was the double paddle thing... maybe it's just a bit tougher to develop a 'GOOD' canoe roll, than a 'GOOD' kayak roll

and yes I had to learn a kayak roll... -to play kayak polo - they just won't allow you to be in a canoe

[Louie]

Matthew Long, my apprintance at Dagger and the best natural canoe I ever taught, rolled his first time in a canoe after watchin the video "Rollin with Noland" one time. Our first time in a canoe on the Gauley we had never seen anyone roll a canoe, we had heard it could be done but we didn't believe it.

Phil when you are playin pollo and wearin the dress do you have panties on under it? If not, doesn't it make you feel cheap?

[2opnboat1]

I learned to roll early on, and think it helped me greatly. I think that some of the problem with the roll is,

The Roll not taught effectivly
and folks think it is a party trick

I wouldnt go creekin with out, yep you got a full boat to deal with but the hull handles rocks better then my body

[greybear]

I currently don't have a roll neither. I paddle a Detonator and Prophet both very stable. I also only consider myself a class III paddler. The toughest run I paddle is problaly Wilson Creek or Whitetop Luarel. I can jump in midstream which is nice but a roll would make me feel more confident on some runs.

[JayDavis]

No roll yet. I just started paddling in May, but I'm confident on most class III stuff (meaning I can handle III+ and some IV), still learning the Middle Ocoee, pretty comfortable on Chattooga 3 and 3.5, Comfortable on LRC Chairlift section, though Bottleneck always makes me nervous, though I've ran it clean so far.

I realllllllly want to learn to roll, I've tried a couple of times, but I'm by myself in a pond. I'd really love some help.

I'm in a soft chined boat that is very forgiving, I can have it at just about a 90 degree angle and still brace back up.

Having a roll would make me consider:

-getting a smaller or edgier boat that could catch more eddies and let me run more technical stuff.
-run stuff that is solid class IV.

Though you know, I'm not sure how much bigger I want to go. Somewhere around III+/IV you start to experience a transition from thrilling, but relatively safe, to serious consequences. I'm trying to have fun and not die, so I'm not really sure how much bigger I want to go, even if I have the skills. Of course, when I started, I said "If I can just paddle the Nantahala comfortablly, then I'll have reached my goal" But after about the 15th time on the Nanty this Summer, I started getting no just comfy, but a little bored, and wanting more of a challenge, started running the Upper Nanty, Chattooga 3/3.5, Chairlift LRC, Ocoee etc. I guess the question is, will I get to a point where the middle Ocoee just seems stale?

[philcanoe]

....that no panties, it'll make your roll a lot stronger.

[philcanoe]

will I get to a point where the middle Ocoee just seems stale?

Yes - if you're lucky, and then it'll remind you why not.

[JayDavis]

Yeah, I've already had one swim that made me respect that river!

I came out in the top hole at Slice and Dice and swam the entire rapid, through about 3 or 4 holes, not the most fun I've had....

[marclamenace]

C1 B1 !

C1s are so easy to roll... Especially long(ish) one, say 8 feet and up...

I solely screw up my rolls now, as long as the outfit keeps me thight... I even take my time after the setup phase, just before to push, to "feel" the water under my blade, and don't push too hard and even make the end of the move kinda slowly, cause I could easily flip back over on my offside if I swing too hard!

Just bought the Kent Ford "C1 challenge" video lately. I can't see a better video to pass along the C1 virus! The roll is very well and simply explained, too. That guy is amazing. Oh and that smile he does after his "dry hair rolling" - priceless!

[cpaddler57]

The first time I witnessed an open boat roll was on the Nantahala about twenty years ago, I thought it was really cool and wanted to be able to acomplish the task. My first ww boat was an XL13 that I never rolled. My next boat was a Probe 12 that I rolled on the first attempt in a pool. Intent on developing a combat role, I would stop and play at the remnants of an old mill dam on the Elk River near Delrose, TN on the way home from work. There I would flip everyway that I could imagine...upstream, downstream, eddyline...
I think all the practice really paid off. Then I started playing in the holes on the Middle Ocoee, got tired of bailing and switched to C1.
Needless to say, it is alot easier to roll a C1. Sunday before last, I paddled South Sauty for the third time in my career in a converted Dagger GTX. The level was 10" on the new gauge and I was very pleased to hit three combat rolls, one in each Mine Field and one at an insignificant spot below The Slot. I think a combat roll is a very good tool that I wish I did not need.

[2opnboat1]

i will be glad to teach anyone in the southeast how to roll Free or very cheap like a burger from a fast food dive call me and we can work something out

Richard
423 902 8014