Growth of our sport

[boatnc]

I have been talking about this topic with buddies for a great deal of time. We are compeating against an easy safe entertainment movement. PS3, XBox, youtube, paddling videos. These are all areas that have exploded in growth while adventure sports and even outdoor activies have slowed. In addition, these things are all reasonibly cheap and can be done in the safety of ones home. So first lets blame the parents for raising sissys. Just kidding, but seriously kids are getting the same stimulation sitting on their couch than they do when they paddle, climb, bike, hike, camp, and its safe and cheap.

I love the exposure idea, but how many parents new to the sport would want their kids at Gauley or Cheat fest? I think the NOC shootout is a great family friendly event, same with many of the events at the White Water PArk in Char. We are at an impass.

As far as design stagnation you are right on again.

[Louie]

I like those who think big picture with a national exsposure, but I think we better stick to grass root, one on one converts. Unless you think we could teach good old Brad to canoe.

[oopsiflipped]

why is it the sport needs to grow exactly? i like it the way it is.

i'm not saying we shouldn't help other people get interested in boating. i'm always willing to help anyone interested in boating, c or otherwise, anyway i can, but why does canoeing need to grow?

[Carol]

I have been thinking about this the issue further. Going through what other people have written, I do think that attitude unfortunately can play a part in getting new people into this activity.

Two examples:

Back at the turn-of-the-century, don't you just love that term!, for several years two local paddling clubs on either end of a river, met in the middle and put on a slalom race that has attended both by kayakers and open boaters. Afterwards, we had of spaghetti feed and local music for entertainment. For an unsanctioned event, turnout was impressive. I remember standing next to two young men, kayakers, discussing the local runs, with the conversation running somewhat like this: running class three -- 4 stuff is such a high. When newbies asked to boat with me, I just can't do it, they just slow me down too much on that class 2 stuff. The friend agreed wholeheartedly.

I still kick myself for not having the courage to tell the two of them, that somebody with experience took the time to teach them. On class 2 stuff

Second example:

Had a new family, with two youngsters join the club. I'll never forget the day, when they showed up at a meeting with the announcement that they had finally bought a tandem white-water canoe. They were so excited. One of the other club members promptly spoke up and told them: good, here's the name of an individual, who will be able to provide you with lessons. Approximately 6 months later, they bought a solo canoe, and the same club member again told them to go take lessons. At that time, whitewater canoe lessons were approximately a four-hour drive. Shortly after that, the family quit the club.

OK, I admit that I should have stood up for them. But I didn't. I should also have taken the other club members side, and reminded them of who scaled back on all their paddling for a whole year until skills were developed. Mistakes have been made, it takes a lot of work to try to rectify them. The dynamics of a club, for large and small , I think can get intimidating for new members, especially if the other members all are at the same paddling level. But I also think that my husband and I have bent over backwards to try to encourage new members. We have an old tandem boat with flotations and PFD's that we have lent out. If it gets destroyed, no biggie. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

[sbroam]

but why does canoeing need to grow?

Maybe it doesn't, but I want to share what I love.

If this sport doesn't grow, who will be the market to fuel new designs? Who will keep the canoe companies we have left in business? Us old tightwad boaters that epoxy and weld and patch and glue to keep 10 year old Ocoees on the river?

[2opnboat]

The thing is for my personal boating pleasure I like it the way it is From an industry standpoint it needs to grow just so I can keep spending money on R&D, We have spent a bunch of money on this PE project already, and it is hard to Justify if there are only several hundred OC'ers in the nation. Out of that maybe 10% will want a Maxim. Do the math a company has to sale a number of boats just to break even. We are not trying to get rich here just keep the lights on and maybe push the industry a little

[jroneil]

Set up a layaway plan I have bought 5 new boats off my local shop
in the last 3 years all for cash. I order the boat in the fall and pay for it over the winter by spring it is paid for and I have a new boat
It is easy to come up with $40-60 dollars a week than 1000-1400 all at once. I have also bought couple in early spring and picked them up late summer

[jscottl67]

To grow it

#1 - more exposure (press, ads, videos, etc.)

#2 - rentals - tons of tandems in rental fleets for flat/riffles, tons of duckies at "easy" rivers - why not some "easy" beginner WW boats and guided trips? People need to see/paddle/touch a ww boat a few times to make that investment

#3 - scouts/similar programs

#4 - build and market your boat for a purpose. Kayaks are designed and marketed for a purpose - creeks, play, river runners. Build a purpose built creeker that has no pretentions of playing or being anything less than a bomber boat, and a play boat that has no pretentions of being a river runner. I think the OC market is full of generalist boats.

[Craig Smerda]

The thing is for my personal boating pleasure I like it the way it is From an industry standpoint it needs to grow just so I can keep spending money on R&D, We have spent a bunch of money on this PE project already, and it is hard to Justify if there are only several hundred OC'ers in the nation. Out of that maybe 10% will want a Maxim. Do the math a company has to sale a number of boats just to break even. We are not trying to get rich here just keep the lights on and maybe push the industry a little

The manufacturers have to sell new boats to stay afloat... plain and simple. I can't speak for all of them but in most cases it's those long royalex boats you'll most likely see cruising around out on the lake or a quiet river that actually pay for the R&D and tooling of the whitewater lineups. So next time you see someone with a touring boat on their car or truck... thank them!!!

That being said... in regards to Esquif I've actually been astounded at how many new whitewater canoes they have brought to the market in the past ten years in comparison to what Blue Hole, Dagger, Evergreen, MadRiver, Mohawk or Whitesell had in the past. Even Kaz (Millbrook) is pumping out some fresh stuff.

2010 is going to be a great year for open boaters... we have the Blackfly OC freestyle boat, a PE Maxim, my own creation and who knows what else is coming down the pipeline...??? So stay tuned!!!

I'd have to say that many of us are doing what we can to keep the sport fresh and vibrant. I certainly look forward to the future. How we choose to draw new people... or keep the one's we have... that will be the big challenge.

[Mike Gardner]

I came into paddling at the tender young age of 54, a few years ago, and as soon as I could became an instructor. There is a scout leader here who is an instructor trainer in canoe and through his efforts there are over a dozen canoe instructors(me also) and we regularly see over 300 kids through the year in some kind of event or other. Yes, some of those are teeny little kids, but most are not. The same issues talked about are the same things we see. If there is no home support for outdoor activities there won't be much on the river or lake. In the last 2 years maybe 6 kids have become open boaters, 2 bought WW boats. The rest have interest-but not too much. I am trying to plant ideas for when they are older and independent and trips to classII rivers has been a good way to get and keep their interest. Keep it fun, make canoeing cool, and give back some of your time to newbies and we won't go the way of T-Rex

[Sir Adam]

There actually are more younger paddlers out there than a lot of folks think - the respective ages (real, not mental ) of those posting here is proof.

That said, ALL outdoor sports have waned over the past 10 years - those of you that also ski, flatwater paddle, etc... will likely remember the crowds we used to have to deal with. I see this locally, and hear it from talking to some folks with more of an on the ground national presence (mostly on the equipment sales end).

Each year I've posted up on the Northeast Paddlers Message Board trying to get folks to come try a CBoat, offering to provide all the equipment, etc... So far I've had 2 folks take advantage of that who happened to be looking in to purchasing boats and wanted to try out a few of mine (I believe they went on to purchase Siths:) ).

Not a great track record over the past 10 years....

I do think we need to remember to try and be inclusive of all, and concentrate more on PADDLING and less on what craft you are in. Given a friendly setting most folks will try to hop in to a C or OC Boat, and some will stay.

having a loaner boat or two is a good idea - which reminds me I need to get my Cascade back (18 months is a long enough loan, wouldn't you say? ).

[Craig Smerda]

Web related... this is the best place for anything Whitewater C-boat information... hands down!!!

How about being able to actually embed cboat video's onto the Cboatsnet site at some point Adam?

Or... is it easier and more cost effective to simply provide a link? I guess I'll need to poke one of your paid advertiser's if it's a $ thing.

[Mike Gardner]

Just looked at prices for a fully outfitted yak at mountainmanoutdoors.com $995 for a Wavesports habitat 2009 on sale for $697 fully outfitted
Many open boats are in the $2000+ range bare bones
Kaz is probably the best deal new at the $1300-1400 range bare.
This, and other issues previously discussed are some reasons for stagnation. Is a fully outfitted canoe similar in price to the kayaks, like the Blackfly is, a reasonable option. Maybe there needs to be a rethink on outfitting. It's a selling point to the 2 bladders.
I want a vibrant OC community for my grandkids to enjoy

[Sir Adam]

We have the "C Video" section that I'd hoped to grow, as well as a special forum for sharing videos. The issue is in fact $ - bandwidth we have room to grow (though videos eat that up quick), storage space we actually bump up against quite a bit (all the boat images don't help).

In terms of embedding a video in the forum as a link, we should be upgrading to a newer version of phpbb soon, and we'll see if we can include video as part of posts.

[sbroam]

... Maybe there needs to be a rethink on outfitting. It's a selling point to the 2 bladders.
...

This ties into the "why don't folks learn to roll first" thread. The kayak manufacturer have got outfitting working, more or less, "right out of the box" these days. Folks can get fit into their boats well enough to roll without special effort for the most part.

Canoes are another story... It's more of a "builder" scene. There are folks who aren't as handy that might give C-boating a go but for that barrier. I think that is why talk of resurrecting the Dagger "drop in pedestal" bubbles up every so often.