Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

golder · Post by **golder** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:29 pm

these last few posts has me wondering 'how tight is tight?' both my boats are first hand, and the outfitting has been tweaked a bit for me, but both boats are basically pretty close to factory.

i feel snug in my nitro, and even better in my fly. i feel like my outfitting is responsive and like i have good edge control and solid braces.

i dont have a roll YET. though i'm hoping to get another open boater into the pool w/ me any day now (i'm in asheville, and i'm offering up COLD BEER!!!!)... i guess my question will be answered soon, one way or another.

Longboatin · Post by **Longboatin** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:22 am

golder said

these last few posts has me wondering 'how tight is tight?'

Well, I'd suggest if you can only get a pinkie finger in there...

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:27 am

[quote="golder"]these last few posts has me wondering 'how tight is tight?' both my boats are first hand, and the outfitting has been tweaked a bit for me, but both boats are basically pretty close to factory.

i feel snug in my nitro, and even better in my fly. i feel like my outfitting is responsive and like i have good edge control and solid braces.
quote]

If you are using a bulkhead and use the foot braces, you are probably tight enough to roll. Just remember that you are going to be upside down and applying a bit of torque in the roll, and you are pulling against the weight of a canoe with a bit of water in it.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:45 am

Golder,

Your outfitting sounds OK, but if you're working on a roll and struggling with it, outfittting is one thing to try fixing...

It's an obvious problem if your knees slide around when you try to roll - you want solid contact so that all your energy transfers into rolling the hull.

If you don't have knee straps as well as thigh straps, try adding those.

If your thigh straps are low, try moving them up your crotch more (can maybe do using a loop of webbing instead of moving anchors, this is how/where my straps are on a quick-release, on that loop of webbing that my straps anchor to).

If your knees slide up into the hull when rolling, get some foam wedges and pad out the side of your boat - this is one area lots of outfitting isn't solid enough.

Pat.

Longboatin · Post by **Longboatin** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:14 am

All this virginally tight talk prompts me to mention that,
and Lengthy will surely back me up.
Even sloppy seconds will do 4 rollin a boat. Like I said before, I can and have rolld the longboat in ww, and thats with nuthin but a seat and knee pads.
Lenghty tandem rolls w/ no outfitting

Really...just what are you freaks on about the tightness?

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:15 am

Why would Lengthy or anybody else need to back you up? We weren't talking about you, and the outfitting you need to roll your boat in the water you paddle.

We're talking about another guy in another boat - and he's looking for tips on what might help him.

I know a guy who can hand-roll his open boat, should he join in and advise Golder to ditch the paddle?

Because you can roll your tandem with nothing but a seat, we should all start taking the thigh straps out of our playboats and that's going to make us better paddlers - is that your point? Golder and others will get their rolls nailed if they swap out the foam saddles for a bench seat? Thanks for the contribution, I'm sure everyone will get right on that.

Pat.

Longboatin · Post by **Longboatin** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:57 am

Oh Pat, jus tryin to have a bit o fun with the "tightness" angle of the post.
And, if goldr just startin out, yes outfitting is one thing to consider tweakin, but how 'bout a persons flexbility, and keepn yer head down, and tryin to keep yer movements fluid, and lettin yer life jacket float you when yer rolln the boat over, makin it easier to pull yerself into the boat and not pushin the paddle to the bottom.
Just trying to provide a differnt, yet important perspctive to the roll, discoverd rolling canoes one is not super glued into. Yes, its my perspective, but you and all the other outfiting focusd boaters here made their I statments.
I didnt tell golder to use no outfitting, I merely comment on what is possible, to maybe encourage them to try regardless. Just like your handrolling buddy, theres more to it than merely outfitting. Seems as the only suggestions on this thread were outfitting focussd. the roll is more than outfitting.

Post by **sbroam** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:36 am

Point taken on outfitting. But... I think it is a lot harder to LEARN to roll in a boat with loose outfitting, at least for most people. Learning takes a lot of repetition. I spent a year trying to roll a second hand ME with a single strap set up and no foot pegs. At that time I didn't know from bad outfitting. Then I got a Viper with a double strap + pegs set up and my results improved immediately. Now I am sure I could go back and roll that first boat. Heck, I've even rolled a "long boat" with nothing but a cane seat and an air bag holding me in - but I don't think I could do that reliably or in heavy water.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:23 pm

Outfitting diff matters, my roll is pretty good and dependable, in a boat that I like the outfitting. If my outfitting is sloppy I may roll but It is hard and sloppy. As far as rolling a long boat without outfitting, Nice party trick, and that is all I have to say about that.

Longboatin · Post by **Longboatin** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:28 pm

thanks 4 understanding Broom, but dont feel ya havta appologize 4 the intermediates, those invested in the rules of the game, and angry at anyone doing what we shouldnt and caint. They may, with time, attain an expert mindset, realizn the rivers dont know no rulz.

p.s. I realiably don't havta roll...

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:33 pm

now Richard.... Nolan did it all the time - So often you would of thought, he was doing it for fun or show... You don't call that Perception Saddle thingy proper outfitting do you?

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:42 pm

Ya know Phil the precip saddle is cool I dont like it but folks do and it is a great idea. I just dont like the weight. And let me say I am not knocking longboats roll in the barge but I just dont see him staying in it while being trashed in a hole. THe first time I saw a roll was at longpool at the Piney Creek in AR in an unoutfitted tandem boat, I think that maybe when i got hooked.
oufitting is a personal thing and I wont knock it is what works for you

cheajack · Post by **cheajack** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:29 pm

Kent Ford in Take the C-1 Challenge says if you can move 1/2" in any direction your outfitting is too loose. It has always been the guage for me.

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:37 pm

Longboatin - are you doing a full roll (ie 360 degrees) with no outfitting or rolling up from the onside?

Longboatin · Post by **Longboatin** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:46 pm

You sound like my buddy fleckbass when I showed 'im how I could roll my outrageX. He acted like it some how didnt count cause I wasnt absolutely upside down. but in the real world, ie. river environs, a roll 4 me is just recovery from failed brace, so?

Anyway to answer u jrsh - if I flip to my "offside", I switch hands and then roll. So I guess always roll onside period.

C-Forum

Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

sloppy seconds

please

outfitting

Oh boy...here we go