Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

[Paddle Power]

I'm all for teaching rolling!

[2opnboat1]

some of the best instructors in the world are not certified. I am not and no very few that are except for the kickass insurance they offer. I like Craigs post . We all need to know how to roll. And to help this out Team Mohawk will be offering roll clinics. If there are four people willing to pay 40 bucks a peice I will rent a pool for a few hour and we sill see what happens

[yarnellboat]

I think the roll isn't taught today because the days of discrimination haven't passed - if many of the certified instructors are old school and the approved curricula don't include rolling, well, most people won't learn to roll. We're still waiting for a changing of the guard of alpha instructors.

A lot of people just getting into ww go to certified instructors for certified courses, typically they don't start practicing with friends & neighbours until they're already more involved. For example, Team Mohawk would likely be preaching to the converted - teaching experienced ww paddlers who want to add a roll, not newcomers canoeists who don't know who's who or what's what.

I believe some of these instructors "don't approve of" the roll because they never learned it themselves. Also, not everyone gets a roll, so perhaps it's a challenge to make something part of the official approved courses if not all instructors will be able to do it?

This is the case where I am anyway: most people paddling ww in canoes now around here all learned through courses from the same guy, and he doesn't teach/like/do rolling. He doesn't even teach anymore, and no new certified instructor has stepped to fill those shoes with the club scene. So, a few folks have been learning rolling from a self-taught sub-group of friends & neighbours, but the majority of senior paddlers, who have big influence over incoming new paddlers, don't have anything to do with rolling (fortunately, some of the younger/newer paddlers are now starting to pick up the leadership and have more influence over incoming newbies, so more people will start rolling in this region in coming years).

There's also the "tipping point" thing (no pun intended). If people see other people rolling canoes on the river, they'll be interested; if it's something they've never seen, they're less likely to care about it, or even know about it.

It's just not common enough to have reached the critical mass; as with kayaks, it'll be good when rolling a canoe is taken for granted and not seen as a rare party trick - so, as Craig, Richard and others are on to, we all need to keep learning and keep teaching!

Pat.

[Craig Smerda]

Part of the reason I feel the roll is not focused on by the "instruction crowd" is that many of the instructors and programs being pointed at in this thread have a hard enough time trying to get people to paddle forward properly, how to brace properly, and how to read water properly... which are all just as important as the "roll" if not more.

As Dooley pointed out... many people have ran tough things before without having a roll... but I'd bet dollars to donuts those same people had a dam'n good forward stroke... could brace their way down Niagra Falls if need be and knew how to read rivers, current and drops better than Lewis & Clark.

BUT... I still encourage everyone that paddles an Open Canoe to learn to roll. Do squirt boaters swim, how about C1 paddlers? The only other group I see swimming on a regular basis is the rafters and tubers... and I don't care for the thought of our group being lumped in with them if possible.

On the brighter and lighter side there's a whole new clan joining in on the swimmin' thang... those silly SUP'ers

[sbroam]

Part of the reason I feel the roll is not focused on by the "instruction crowd" is that many of the instructors and programs being pointed at in this thread have a hard enough time trying to get people to paddle forward properly, how to brace properly, and how to read water properly... which are all just as important as the "roll" if not more.

...

dingdingdingding we may have a winner. One of the only reasons I *might* take an instructor course is to see if there is some secret to teaching the forward stroke. Tandem is bad enough, though most of the time I'm trying to suggest to a 30-40 year old Dad who thinks he already knows how to paddle ways to keep the canoe going straight without swapping sides constantly or yelling at their 8 year old in the front of the boat (No yelling aloud!) When I get somebody to try a solo boat, good grief... It's been long enough since I learned that I'm a pretty terrible teacher. Teach a roll? You have to wait for someone patient enough to stick it out through the "make it go straight" stage...

I think the folks that stick with canoeing have a much greater appreciation of current and can read water. I do have to give our local folks who have been running an annual "kayak 101" class some credit - they have been teaching them to read water and not just how to roll and throw cartwheels.

[Louie]

We don't have instructors down here we put someone in a boat and say "follow me and do what I do"

[jscottl67]

We don't have instructors down here we put someone in a boat and say "follow me and do what I do"

Then we talk about hearin' banjo music off in the distance. If they figure out how to paddle and keep up, they're ready for a canoe. If they slow down, we figure they are kayakers in the making

[Louie]

Amen

[Craig Smerda]

We don't have instructors down here we put someone in a boat and say "follow me and do what I do"

Who taught Chad how to roll Mike... and I ain't talking about rolling during a safety meeting?

[yarnellboat]

True beginners have other stuff to learn, but when we're teaching them braces we might as well at least show them rolling - let them know what's possible.

And there's no need to teach a roll to a dad who can't keep a tandem straight, but as soon as somebody can paddle a ww solo straight and is taking whitewater lessons in a solo boat, rolling should be in the lesson plan.

Pat.

[Louie]

I did in the pool here at the house. You know those that can't, teach.

[yarnellboat]

Hey, I forgot that I'd actually taken an asscociation-sanctioned C-1 course that included rolling (but I already had a roll, so it's not where I learned), and there's also an advanced solo playboating course that includes rolling; so, here in BC it has been included into the suite of official canoeing instruction by the-powers-that-be!

http://www.bccanoe.com/courses/programs.cfm

The only problem is that there's so few instructors and so few students that these courses literally never get offered! In the end it seems a small group of paddler/instructors put together the courses mostly to entertain themselves. And by the time people are interested in taking these advanced courses, they've probably already learned rolling from friends.

If it's been in handbooks and videos and people have been doing it for 3 decades, it really is mind boggling that it's not part of the curriculum for more modern courses and we still have to teach ourselves!

Pat.

[Paddle Power]

rolling is in the new Paddle Canada whitewater solo canoe program

[Louie]

while it is true at times we don't even try and stay in the boat when we flip, like we know as soon as we roll we will be past the eddy, full of water, and floatin over the 45 footer backwards. but remember the squirter, butt boater and real men wearin Kilts, don't get hit with a blast of water that hit them from the top of their head to their knees, and havin a boat full of water liftin them up off their seats when the don't quit clear the edge of Phills whoe on the Ottawaaa. Open boats are harder to stay in than other boats besides the raft. I would think in order of likely hood of fallin out Rafters 1st OC1's second, C boater third, butt boater fourth and Squitrtes last hades they are so in the water you can't tell if they are swimmin or not. And we know that most C1'ers never swim but still that is the way I rank it.

[jrsh92]

C-1ers don't have to swim often to be in danger of falling out... you're in a smaller area and a little bit tighter than an open boat I guess and the skirt does a lot, but in the end it's pretty much the same kind of outfitting you're going to get pulled out of... you're right it's harder to fall out of than an open boat by a lot but it's wayyy easier than a kayak (well, maybe not with lap belts)